Help with falsifiability!

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Prof Bulani
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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The question in my mind is this: does it matter if a hypothesis is worded in such a way that it is falsifiable instead of verifiable, for any practical purpose? From a scientific perspective, does the hypothesis "all swans are white" (falsifiable) change the testing methodology from the hypothesis "not all swans are white" (not falsifiable in a practical sense, but verifiable)? This seems to be much more of a semantic issue than a valuable distinction. In my view, either of these hypotheses would be testable in the same manner and answer the same question.
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Prof Bulani wrote:The question in my mind is this: does it matter if a hypothesis is worded in such a way that it is falsifiable instead of verifiable, for any practical purpose? From a scientific perspective, does the hypothesis "all swans are white" (falsifiable) change the testing methodology from the hypothesis "not all swans are white" (not falsifiable in a practical sense, but verifiable)? This seems to be much more of a semantic issue than a valuable distinction. In my view, either of these hypotheses would be testable in the same manner and answer the same question..
I agree. I've never seen the focus on falsifiability as a solution to the so-called Problem of Induction. Just a re-wording of the alleged problem.
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Steve3007 wrote: February 11th, 2020, 5:54 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:"It's still falsifiable"? So it counts if it can only be falsified in theory?
Yes, It can be falsified by finding a finite number of black swans. (One will do it.) But, as you said, it can only be verified by examining a potentially infinite number of swans.

I don't know what you mean by "counts".
Ooops! That's me, clarifying matters by ... muddying the waters. Sorry. 😊
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 3:26 am The question in my mind is this: does it matter if a hypothesis is worded in such a way that it is falsifiable instead of verifiable, for any practical purpose?
No, it doesn't. What matters is if it is falsifiable (or verifiable, I suppose?). What might matter more is if it is not falsifiable, and cannot be reworded to make it so. Some matters cannot be confirmed or denied. God's existence is one of them.
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Pattern-chaser wrote: February 12th, 2020, 5:47 am No, it doesn't. What matters is if it is falsifiable (or verifiable, I suppose?). What might matter more is if it is not falsifiable, and cannot be reworded to make it so. Some matters cannot be confirmed or denied. God's existence is one of them.
Although this is not the thread to go into this issue, God's existence is falsifiable. That is, either God exists, or God doesn't exist. One and only one must be true. And claiming that God cannot be defined (a claim that requires knowledge of God, like any other claim) doesn't make God unfalsifiable.
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 8:54 am Although this is not the thread to go into this issue...
I think it's wholly appropriate to use God's existence here, but only as an example.

Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 8:54 am God's existence is falsifiable. That is, either God exists, or God doesn't exist. One and only one must be true.
I think this is mistaken. If God's existence is falsifiable (and God does not actually exist), then there is a way to show that God's existence is false. That's what "falsifiable" means, isn't it? And there is no such way.

It is insufficient to assert that "one and only one must be true" if you can't demonstrate which one. Your 'truth' is valid and pointless.

God's existence is a great example of something that is not falsifiable by logical or scientific means.
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Actually, it is easier to show that God's existence is false than to verify that God's existence is true, given any definition of God, and nothing else. Given any definition of God, it can be determined that it is either possible for God to exist per that definition, or that it is impossible for God to exist per that definition. Concluding that it is possible for God to exist per a particular definition doesn't necessarily means that God, per that definition, actually exists. But concluding that it is not possible for God to exist per a particular definition, necessarily means that God, per that definition, does not exist.
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 10:15 am Given any definition of God, it can be determined that it is either possible for God to exist per that definition, or that it is impossible for God to exist per that definition.
How can it be determined? If God's existence is falsifiable, then there will be a way to show that God does not exist. What is this way, technique or process that you will use to show that God does not exist? For if God's existence is falsifiable, this way/process/technique does actually exist. That the promise of falsifiability. I'm not asking you to prove that God does not exist. But, since you have claimed that God's existence is falsifiable, I am asking you to describe the way/process/technique you would use to prove that God does not exist. For you have claimed that such a way exists. So reveal your secret, please?
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Read the entire sentence, not just the part you highlighted. It answers your question.
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 10:15 am by Prof Bulani » Today, 2:15 pm

Actually, it is easier to show that God's existence is false than to verify that God's existence is true, given any definition of God, and nothing else. Given any definition of God, it can be determined that it is either possible for God to exist per that definition, or that it is impossible for God to exist per that definition. Concluding that it is possible for God to exist per a particular definition doesn't necessarily means that God, per that definition, actually exists. But concluding that it is not possible for God to exist per a particular definition, necessarily means that God, per that definition, does not exist.
I think some definitions of God may be logically disprovable if the definition includes claims that are logically incoherent or metaphysically impossible. For example, we can ask whether an all-knowing and all-powerful God could invent a problem so difficult that He could not solve it. The definition seems logically contradictory. In these instances no appeal to empirical evidence seems necessary. The definition is incoherent.

If God is undefined, what sort of evidence could count against accepting His existence? There seems nothing to gainsay. Does not the claim of God’s existence need some actual content before we can evaluate it? If there is no content, what is being asked that is worth asking?
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 11:08 am Read the entire sentence, not just the part you highlighted. It answers your question.
Sorry, I'm too stupid to see it. Perhaps you can show me?
Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 10:15 am Given any definition of God, it can be determined that it is either possible for God to exist per that definition, or that it is impossible for God to exist per that definition.
There's the whole sentence. I can see no description of how God's existence might be falsified, only an assertion that "it can be determined".
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Prof Bulani
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Wossname wrote: February 12th, 2020, 11:18 am If God is undefined, what sort of evidence could count against accepting His existence? There seems nothing to gainsay. Does not the claim of God’s existence need some actual content before we can evaluate it? If there is no content, what is being asked that is worth asking?
You understand the point I'm making. My question is now: under what circumstances could God be possibly undefined, or more specifically, indefinable?
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Pattern-chaser wrote: February 12th, 2020, 11:37 am
Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 11:08 am Read the entire sentence, not just the part you highlighted. It answers your question.
Sorry, I'm too stupid to see it. Perhaps you can show me?
Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 10:15 am Given any definition of God, it can be determined that it is either possible for God to exist per that definition, or that it is impossible for God to exist per that definition.
There's the whole sentence. I can see no description of how God's existence might be falsified, only an assertion that "it can be determined".
The word "definition" appears 3 times in the sentence. Given any definition of God, we can determine whether God, per that definition, can exist or not. The distinction between "we can determine whether God exists or not" may seem trivial from "we can determine whether God, per a particular definition, can exist or not", but it isn't.

Any statement containing the word "God" in it implies that there is a concept (definition) mapped on to that word. If the word has no concept it maps on to, statements cannot be communicated with that word in it.

You were the one who brought God into this discussion in the first place. When you mentioned the word God in your statement, was it your position that nobody, including yourself, had any inkling that a meaning was implicitly mapped on to the word? Was your sentence with the word God in it intended to be meaningless?
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Pattern-chaser wrote: February 12th, 2020, 11:37 am
Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 11:08 am Read the entire sentence, not just the part you highlighted. It answers your question.
Sorry, I'm too stupid to see it. Perhaps you can show me?
Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 10:15 am Given any definition of God, it can be determined that it is either possible for God to exist per that definition, or that it is impossible for God to exist per that definition.
There's the whole sentence. I can see no description of how God's existence might be falsified, only an assertion that "it can be determined".
Wait a minute! Prof Bulani, do you propose to show that X does not exist by inspecting X's definition? 🙄
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Re: Help with falsifiability!

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Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 12:16 pm Given any definition of God, we can determine whether God, per that definition, can exist or not.
Sorry, I wrote the previous post before I saw this one. 😳

I can't see how the existence of anything can be confirmed (or denied) by inspecting its definition. 😐
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