Help with falsifiability!

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Wossname
Posts: 429
Joined: January 31st, 2020, 10:41 am

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Wossname »

Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 12:05 pm by Prof Bulani » 27 minutes ago

Wossname wrote: ↑Today, 3:18 pm
If God is undefined, what sort of evidence could count against accepting His existence? There seems nothing to gainsay. Does not the claim of God’s existence need some actual content before we can evaluate it? If there is no content, what is being asked that is worth asking?
You understand the point I'm making. My question is now: under what circumstances could God be possibly undefined, or more specifically, indefinable?
Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 12:16 pm Any statement containing the word "God" in it implies that there is a concept (definition) mapped on to that word. If the word has no concept it maps on to, statements cannot be communicated with that word in it.

Have you answered your own question?
User avatar
Prof Bulani
Posts: 367
Joined: December 1st, 2019, 3:47 pm

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Prof Bulani »

I'm going to repeat my exact quote, as you copied and pasted it

"Given any definition of God, we can determine whether God, per that definition, can exist or not."

Determining that something can possibly exist is not the same as confirming that something does exist.

There are 2 criteria that we can use to determine, with certainty, if something cannot possibly exist
1. It is impossible for something that is self-contradictory, or otherwise logically fallacious, to exist.
2. It is impossible for something that is premised on a falsehood to exist.

By examining the definition of something, we can determine if it meets either of these criteria, and rule out the possibility of its existence.

Example 1. Greg: an invisible pink Rottweiler

By definition, Greg is simultaneously pink and invisible, which is a logical self contradiction. As such, it is impossible for Greg, per this definition, to exist.

Example 2. Greg: the Rottweiler that killed my cat

Since my cat was not killed (in fact, I don't have a cat), the premise of Greg's definition is false. As such, a Rottweiler, or any other entity, that killed my cat, cannot possibly exist.

Example 3. Greg: my neighbor's Rottweiler

By this definition alone, I cannot rule out the possiblity that Greg exists, and cannot confirm or deny Greg's existence. Therefore it is possible for Greg, per this definition, to exist. Confirming or denying Greg's existence would require more than just it's definition.
"The purpose of life is to survive and replicate" - Erik von Markovik
User avatar
Prof Bulani
Posts: 367
Joined: December 1st, 2019, 3:47 pm

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Prof Bulani »

Wossname wrote: February 12th, 2020, 12:34 pm Have you answered your own question?
Essentially, yes. There are no conditions under which the word "God" can be undefined and simultaneously communicated as a word.
"The purpose of life is to survive and replicate" - Erik von Markovik
Wossname
Posts: 429
Joined: January 31st, 2020, 10:41 am

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Wossname »

Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 1:02 pm Wossname wrote: ↑Today, 4:34 pm
Have you answered your own question?
Essentially, yes. There are no conditions under which the word "God" can be undefined and simultaneously communicated as a word.
Hmmm
I have heard words before that I don’t know the meaning of.
And God is usually taken to mean a supernatural or supranatural being of some sort. If I don’t know what the term means to you, I don’t know how to discuss it in a meaningful way.
The question I ask is not if He or She is possible (though clarity as to His/Her nature would aid discussion).
I want to know if I have any reason to believe in Him/Her. If there is no way to disprove His/Her existence, I don’t have a scientific reason to do so. Other options are available. I am usually reluctant to avail myself of them.
User avatar
Prof Bulani
Posts: 367
Joined: December 1st, 2019, 3:47 pm

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Prof Bulani »

Wossname wrote: February 12th, 2020, 2:46 pm Hmmm
I have heard words before that I don’t know the meaning of.
Words that you don't know the meaning of are not undefined words.
And God is usually taken to mean a supernatural or supranatural being of some sort. If I don’t know what the term means to you, I don’t know how to discuss it in a meaningful way.
The question I ask is not if He or She is possible (though clarity as to His/Her nature would aid discussion).
I want to know if I have any reason to believe in Him/Her. If there is no way to disprove His/Her existence, I don’t have a scientific reason to do so. Other options are available. I am usually reluctant to avail myself of them.
I, on the other hand, am only interested in answering the question of whether God actually exists in reality or not. I don't want to justify a false belief.

In my quest thus far, I've never come across a definition of God that didn't allow evaluating whether God could possibly exist or not. I've come across many definitions of God where the conclusion is that God exists per that definition. I've also come across many where the conclusion has been that God does not exist per that definition. And that's the outcome I expected.

Even if your goal is to know if there is a reason to believe in the existence of God, your starting point is still going to be the definition of God.
"The purpose of life is to survive and replicate" - Erik von Markovik
Wossname
Posts: 429
Joined: January 31st, 2020, 10:41 am

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Wossname »

Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 3:46 pm I, on the other hand, am only interested in answering the question of whether God actually exists in reality or not. I don't want to justify a false belief.

In my quest thus far, I've never come across a definition of God that didn't allow evaluating whether God could possibly exist or not. I've come across many definitions of God where the conclusion is that God exists per that definition. I've also come across many where the conclusion has been that God does not exist per that definition. And that's the outcome I expected.

Even if your goal is to know if there is a reason to believe in the existence of God, your starting point is still going to be the definition of God.
i could define God as a dog's fart and find evidence of His existence.
That doesn't seem very interesting.

You say you are interested in answering the question of whether He exists in reality?
You're going to need a definition by your own argument.
If you don't want a false belief it had better be the right definition.
What ya got?
User avatar
Prof Bulani
Posts: 367
Joined: December 1st, 2019, 3:47 pm

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Prof Bulani »

I created a thread called "the God exists paradox", where I point out exactly that. It turns out that any definition of God that makes the existence of God possible also makes God, as you put it, uninteresting. All definitions of God (that I've come across) that are "interesting" enough to be the object of any religious or metaphysical attention, also makes God impossible to exist per those definitions.

Personally, my view is that God is a fictional character, akin to Spiderman, and doesn't exist in reality nor ever did. As a fictional character, we can imbue God with any number of "interesting" powers, abilities and attributes we want, without worrying too much about physical or logical consistency.
"The purpose of life is to survive and replicate" - Erik von Markovik
Wossname
Posts: 429
Joined: January 31st, 2020, 10:41 am

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Wossname »

Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 6:03 pm by Prof Bulani » Today, 10:03 pm

I created a thread called "the God exists paradox", where I point out exactly that. It turns out that any definition of God that makes the existence of God possible also makes God, as you put it, uninteresting. All definitions of God (that I've come across) that are "interesting" enough to be the object of any religious or metaphysical attention, also makes God impossible to exist per those definitions.

Personally, my view is that God is a fictional character, akin to Spiderman, and doesn't exist in reality nor ever did. As a fictional character, we can imbue God with any number of "interesting" powers, abilities and attributes we want, without worrying too much about physical or logical consistency.
Amen to that!
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Pattern-chaser »

woodbine wrote: February 7th, 2020, 7:26 pm Can an unfalsifiable hypothesis be demonstrated to be true, beyond reasonable doubt by evidence, or does the fact that no evidence could falsify it mean that the value of all evidence is negated?

My first thoughts were that evidence would indeed be useless but I hope someone can help confirm or deny it.
Everyone is becoming invested in whether God exists, but the issue here is, or was, unfalsifiable hypotheses. As an example (only), God is a good one. With no evidence at all, for or against, God's existence is not verifiable or falsifiable by logical/scientific means. It is the lack of evidence - and the impossibility of finding evidence in the future - that leads to the unfalsifiability. For without evidence, no conclusions of any sort can logically be drawn. Unless you count "no conclusion can be drawn" as a conclusion. 😋

But not all hypotheses lack evidence. So perhaps there's more to it than that. The OP asks "Can an unfalsifiable hypothesis be demonstrated to be true, beyond reasonable doubt, by evidence?" [ Excuse me for changing the punctuation; if I have changed the intended meaning, please let me know. ] Evidence is the key to demonstrating most things.

"There is at least one black swan" could be verified by spotting just one black swan, but falsifying it would require us to examine all swans, which is impossible in practice. So this is an hypothesis that is verifiable but not falsifiable. The OP asks if an unfalsifiable hypothesis can be verified by evidence, and for this example, the answer is yes. This assumes that unfalsifiable-in-practice is the same as unfalsifiable; are we OK with that?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Wossname
Posts: 429
Joined: January 31st, 2020, 10:41 am

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Wossname »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 13th, 2020, 9:51 am There is at least one black swan" could be verified by spotting just one black swan, but falsifying it would require us to examine all swans, which is impossible in practice. So this is an hypothesis that is verifiable but not falsifiable. The OP asks if an unfalsifiable hypothesis can be verified by evidence, and for this example, the answer is yes. This assumes that unfalsifiable-in-practice is the same as unfalsifiable; are we OK with that?
Pattern-chaser that certainly had me thinking. I think you are right. Science requires an unfalsifiable statement must be verified by evidence.
My understanding (and I might be wrong) is as follows:

In science “X exists” is a scientific statement if, in principle, it can be empirically verified. Until it is verified, it is not accepted as true. If “a black swan exists” is never verified it is never accepted as true.

All Xs are like the ones we have seen is (unless untrue by definition, i.e. any difference disqualifies other examples from being Xs) is a contingent truth. (E.g. all swans are white). That is, the statement can be accepted as true for now, provided we can in principle prove it wrong. If it can’t be proved wrong, it’s not a scientific statement.

Does this seem right?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Steve3007 »

Wossname wrote:All Xs are like the ones we have seen
...is a proposition that cannot be verified with certainty in finite time because verifying it would require observing every member of an arbitrarily large/potentially infinite set, called "all Xs".

viewtopic.php?p=348467#p348467
viewtopic.php?p=348863#p348863
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Wossname wrote: February 14th, 2020, 5:59 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: February 13th, 2020, 9:51 am There is at least one black swan" could be verified by spotting just one black swan, but falsifying it would require us to examine all swans, which is impossible in practice. So this is an hypothesis that is verifiable but not falsifiable. The OP asks if an unfalsifiable hypothesis can be verified by evidence, and for this example, the answer is yes. This assumes that unfalsifiable-in-practice is the same as unfalsifiable; are we OK with that?
Pattern-chaser that certainly had me thinking. I think you are right. Science requires an unfalsifiable statement must be verified by evidence.
My understanding (and I might be wrong) is as follows:

In science “X exists” is a scientific statement if, in principle, it can be empirically verified. Until it is verified, it is not accepted as true. If “a black swan exists” is never verified it is never accepted as true.

All Xs are like the ones we have seen is (unless untrue by definition, i.e. any difference disqualifies other examples from being Xs) is a contingent truth. (E.g. all swans are white). That is, the statement can be accepted as true for now, provided we can in principle prove it wrong. If it can’t be proved wrong, it’s not a scientific statement.

Does this seem right?
No, I don't think so. It is falsification, not verification, that underpins science and the scientific method. As you say later: "If it can’t be proved wrong" i.e. falsified - "it’s not a scientific statement". 👍 But scientific statements are never accepted as true, they are working 'truths' that have not yet been falsified.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 12:16 pm Given any definition of God, we can determine whether God, per that definition, can exist or not.
Isn't this just moving the problem elsewhere? The immediate problem here. it seems to me, is that there is no evidence pertaining to God's existence, for or against. Therefore no logical conclusions can be drawn about whether God exists. So you have taken an unanswerable question, and moved it so that it looks like you've solved it. But I don't think you have. Instead of using the real world as your reference, you have shifted things so that existence is determined by thought experiment, not empirical evidence. You are on shaky ground, I think.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Prof Bulani
Posts: 367
Joined: December 1st, 2019, 3:47 pm

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Prof Bulani »

Pattern-chaser wrote: February 14th, 2020, 9:16 am
Prof Bulani wrote: February 12th, 2020, 12:16 pm Given any definition of God, we can determine whether God, per that definition, can exist or not.
Isn't this just moving the problem elsewhere? The immediate problem here. it seems to me, is that there is no evidence pertaining to God's existence, for or against. Therefore no logical conclusions can be drawn about whether God exists. So you have taken an unanswerable question, and moved it so that it looks like you've solved it. But I don't think you have. Instead of using the real world as your reference, you have shifted things so that existence is determined by thought experiment, not empirical evidence. You are on shaky ground, I think.
Without a definition for God, the search for empirical evidence cannot occur. What evidence would you look for if God isn't defined? How would you know if you've found evidence? The definition tells you what evidence to look for. It even tells you if evidence exists or not.

What is an example of what you may consider "evidence pertaining to God's existence"?
"The purpose of life is to survive and replicate" - Erik von Markovik
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Help with falsifiability!

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Prof Bulani wrote: February 14th, 2020, 9:22 am What is an example of what you may consider "evidence pertaining to God's existence"?
An example? 🤔 A photograph. [ Other forms of evidence are available. ]
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021