Are viruses living things?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Steve3007
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Steve3007 »

NukeBan wrote:Personally, I don't believe that dividing lines exist objectively in nature, but are instead convenient human inventions...
I very much agree.
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h_k_s
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by h_k_s »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 19th, 2020, 9:40 am
h_k_s wrote: April 18th, 2020, 5:16 pm

According to Aristotle, who invented "logic", and who composed the first list of fallacies, avoiding fallacies is critical. It is the foundational first step. Everything else you mentioned @Pattern-chaser is secondary.
You write as though I defend the use of logical fallacies, which I do not. I merely observe that there are an infinite number of pitfalls our pronouncements must avoid, and logical fallacy is only one of them. Perhaps it might be more useful to concentrate on making our pronouncements useful and worthwhile instead?
Ok sure. Sounds good.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Any object organized in such a way that it exhibits goal-directed behavior, specifically to survive, thrive, and reproduce would be a living organism. So, the virus would be a living organism. It would be the subject of biology, not merely physics and chemistry.
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Greta wrote: April 3rd, 2020, 6:09 am The seven criteria for life were clearly compiled by organisms seeking self-similarity, no doubt because the particular species has quite a high opinion of itself :)
Steve3007 wrote: April 3rd, 2020, 3:14 amIt's always interesting to see the striking parallels between genetic code and computer code.
What are the main similarities you see between genetic code and C++? (I was never a programmer but I worked closely enough with them to be in trouble under your "no comment" system. I used them so to easily backtrack if I bumbled, and to provide transparency (because I wasn't a programmer).

As you say, there's no programmer to grumble about "bad code" in biology, aside from the Grim Reaper.
[/quote]

I don't think we can call the virus "bad code", because morality is species specific. What is good for the lion hunting the human is not good for the human. So, the virus multiplying within us may be bad for us, but good for the virus.

I don't think I could classify the Earth as a living organism. Living organisms behave purposefully to survive, thrive, and reproduce. The Earth seems to respond passively to what is going on upon it and within it, making it an inanimate object.
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Felix
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Felix »

Nukeban: "From the human perspective, we good, virus bad. If we change the perspective to that of the biosphere as a whole, we are the pathological agents, and viruses are the antibody."
That suggests that the biosphere is a self-regulating system, as it must be in the broadest sense to support life, a la the Gaia hypothesis. Mankind's ecologically destructive activities are certainly a malicious threat to the planetary immune system so highly contagious and adaptable viruses and bacteria would be a practical means to neutralize the destructive parasite known as homo sapiens, or any other species whose unchecked growth disrupts planetary homeostasis.
Marvin Edwards: "I don't think I could classify the Earth as a living organism. Living organisms behave purposefully to survive, thrive, and reproduce."
"Purposeful behaviour" implies conscious intention, which is not a requirement for life, i.e., survival does not demonstrate the existence of a will to live, merely an inclination to avoid harm and dissolution. And viruses cannot reproduce on their own, they must expropriate that function from the cells they hijack.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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The Beast
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by The Beast »

I checked my boxes.
Lifeforce: yes
Blueprint: yes
Consciousness: Unknown.
The concept of bad or good means predatory or not predatory.

If it is predatory: the lifeforce needs to be separated from the blueprint. Whether it is conscious or not it is not as important as predatory or not. We may be able to preserve the virus by changing the blueprint to a non-predatory blueprint. If I incorporate the virus blueprint into my personal blueprint, then:
Lifeforce: test
Blueprint: yes
Consciousness: test
Conclusion: If the tests are positive then it is alive.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Sy Borg »

Steve3007 wrote: April 21st, 2020, 3:41 am
NukeBan wrote:Personally, I don't believe that dividing lines exist objectively in nature, but are instead convenient human inventions...
I very much agree.
It is, as some scientists say, a "philosophical question".

I heard an interesting twist on this recently. The idea is that viruses in themselves are like spores and it is the viroplasm stage, when the virus is activated in a cell, using the cell material to make new viruses. Viruses, like spores, can survive for eons in a dormant state.

So we can look at viruses as the spore stage of a life cycle whose stages reflect any other life, just that what we see as "the main game" - doing stuff that life does, is relatively very brief.

A fern, for instance, produces spores, which then go through various Googlable stages up to a long, reproductive adulthood. By contrast, viroplasm appears only briefly in an infected cell, producing new viruses before it's used up. Life for a virus is like being an egg for years, springing straight into adulthood to reproduce for a very short period, and then dissipating.
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Consul
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Consul »

The German virologist Hendrik Streeck says that "a virus is not a living being, but a being close to life." Viruses are parabiological things.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Sy Borg
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Sy Borg »

I see the universe itself as a dynamic living system, where most of the universe is "dead matter" in the same way as the water in our bodies is "dead matter".

There are contradictions in the mainstream definitions of life.

For instance, cells are not considered to be alive, rather they are called "biological machines". Yet eukaryotic cells are more advanced than prokaryotes in much the same way as humans are more advanced than other animals. If their dependence on being part of the body mattered, then obligate parasites and, indeed, many urban humans would not be classed as living things.

So, constituents of living systems are not thought of as being alive in themselves. Yet they are essential parts of living systems. In this, I think that humanity has laboured under confusing perspective effects, resulting in the words "biology" and "life" being treated as synonymous. Even the words "life" and "death" refer to phenomena that would seem more relative than absolute. "Activated" and "dormant" describes the situation better IMO.

In that, biology routinely activates and de-activates, and in different ways, rather than lives and dies as such. So viruses, spores, seeds and eggs can be thought of as life in a dormant stage, unactivated, potentially becoming viroplasm, primitive plants, modern plants and animals respectively. Likewise, a dead body is a seething bed of microorganisms, including virusoplasm, and usually soon returns to an ecosystem.

I suppose my beef is that life and "activated biology" are treated as synonymous. That perspective tends to undervalue the complex interconnectedness and interdependence in both larger and smaller processes than biology, not to mention their indispensable codependence with "life" (as currently described).
FranknBerry
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by FranknBerry »

Yes and no. Depends on the perspective. I don't believe that there will ever be a concrete means of defining what does or does not constitute "life". Not on a global scale, anyway. I prefer to simply look at everything as existing. Everything "is". Out of curiosity, what are some reasons as to why a determination of whether something constitutes "life" or not matter? If a virus were "alive" would it make a difference in what we do?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:20 pm I don't believe that there will ever be a concrete means of defining what does or does not constitute "life".
Yes, here's another of those difficult-to-define terms, like "intelligence" or "consciousness". 😉
Pattern-chaser

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FranknBerry
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by FranknBerry »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 7th, 2021, 5:09 am
FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:20 pm I don't believe that there will ever be a concrete means of defining what does or does not constitute "life".
Yes, here's another of those difficult-to-define terms, like "intelligence" or "consciousness". 😉
Perception is subjective when accounting for all existing perceptions, yet it is objective when narrowed to just one perception alone. Fact to one, opinion to all.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

FranknBerry wrote: September 7th, 2021, 2:34 pm Perception ... is objective when narrowed to just one perception alone.
That would be a good trick. 😉 How does it work, do you think?
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FranknBerry
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by FranknBerry »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 7th, 2021, 2:46 pm
FranknBerry wrote: September 7th, 2021, 2:34 pm Perception ... is objective when narrowed to just one perception alone.
That would be a good trick. 😉 How does it work, do you think?
Consider two options. Chocolate or vanilla ice-cream. When posed with the question of which of these two is better than the other every individual will hold their own objective fact.

"Chocolate is way better than vanilla!"

"You're crazy. Vanilla is tremendously better than chocolate!"

"You're both wrong. They each taste just as good as the other!"

"Neither tastes any good. They're both so bland!"

When accounting for all possible perceptions no one single perception can be factual as they all exist contradictory to others. This makes them opinions. Subjective. Yet, to each individual themselves their perception is objective fact. Chocolate is way better than vanilla because that's the way it exists in that individuals "mind". If the individual truly saw it as subjective opinion than preference wouldn't exist. We acknowledge that perceptions are opinions, yet to us individually they are treated and reacted to as fact. If concepts of right and wrong were truly perceived as the subjective things they are then many wars never would have taken place. Conflict would be almost nonexistent. The difference between fact and opinion is largely perspective.

This same thing occurs in reference to terms that get tossed around like smart/dumb, normal/odd, attractive/ugly. We gauge others to fit on either end of one of these spectrums and to us individually these measurements are objective facts. Yet, when accounting for all possible perceptions they are subjective opinions. Everybody is smart and dumb, normal and odd, attractive and ugly depending on who is doing the perceiving.

Einstein was a genius and an idiot. There are a lot of people that if you were to say Einstein was an idiot to them they'd call you an idiot. This is because in their singular "minds" Einstein being a genius is an objective fact. But, because it can also be said he was an idiot this makes it a subjective opinion as well.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Are viruses living things?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

FranknBerry wrote: September 7th, 2021, 3:20 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 7th, 2021, 2:46 pm
FranknBerry wrote: September 7th, 2021, 2:34 pm Perception ... is objective when narrowed to just one perception alone.
That would be a good trick. 😉 How does it work, do you think?
Consider two options. Chocolate or vanilla ice-cream. When posed with the question of which of these two is better than the other every individual will hold their own objective fact.
Ah, OK. But I still disagree. ;) These are not "objective fact", but rather they are subjective value judgements. These judgements are valid for the person who makes them, and we might say (perhaps a little rashly?) that they are objectively/indisputably a correct description of that person's opinion, but the opinion itself remains thoroughly personal and thereby subjective, IMO.
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