Astro-physics is not life. That's my point about your point.
Are viruses living things?
- h_k_s
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- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Are viruses living things?
Cancer feeds, grows and reproduces. That might seem alive to some?
A "beating heart that has been removed from a body" is a changing thing. Changing from being (part of) a living creature to being a dead piece of meat. It takes a little time to go from being alive to being dead, and in between, it is...? A poor example, perhaps?
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Re: Are viruses living things?
I explicitly said that convention doesn't imply that something is correct or true.h_k_s wrote: ↑April 13th, 2020, 12:31 pmHere again, conventional and unconventional are merely applications of the fallacy of argumentum populum.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑April 12th, 2020, 8:17 am
It's just a matter of how particular individuals are formulating their concepts. It's a matter of what that individual requires for a particular concept-term application. There's not a right or wrong way to do that, not a true or false way to do it. There are just conventional and unconventional ways to do it. It's not right or true to be conventional or wrong or false to be unconventional.
Google "argumentum populum."
But it's a fact that something is a convention when it is.
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Re: Are viruses living things?
That was not my point, which makes your "point" pointless as well as simplistic, misguided, gratuitous and patronising. I thought you had more ability than that, but seemingly not.
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Re: Are viruses living things?
We just don't know what we are talking of, oftentimes, when we speak of Life in the broadest sense!
Admins who insult? Maybe I came to the wrong place . . .
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Re: Are viruses living things?
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Re: Are viruses living things?
Ok, noted. Thanks.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑April 13th, 2020, 5:36 pmI explicitly said that convention doesn't imply that something is correct or true.
But it's a fact that something is a convention when it is.
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Re: Are viruses living things?
A beating heart removed from a body continues to beat and live until it dies from the absence of an oxygen rich blood supply, as do all organs which may be transplanted. So it's a great example.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 13th, 2020, 12:52 pmCancer feeds, grows and reproduces. That might seem alive to some? 🤔
A "beating heart that has been removed from a body" is a changing thing. Changing from being (part of) a living creature to being a dead piece of meat. It takes a little time to go from being alive to being dead, and in between, it is...? A poor example, perhaps? 😉
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Re: Are viruses living things?
In order for your own thinking to be logically valid, you must avoid fallacies.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 13th, 2020, 12:48 pm...and you seem to be taking the path of Truth Via Logical Fallacies. A strange course to choose, it seems to me.
To avoid them you must know about them.
Aristotle was the first teacher of identifying and correcting fallacies. This aspect of logic has been around for a long, long time (centuries, millennia).
You can google "logic fallacies" and take it from there.
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Re: Are viruses living things?
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Re: Are viruses living things?
True. But for your own thinking to be useful it must be cogent, consistent, and many other things too. Avoiding fallacies is important, but it's only one of (very) many criteria that the results of our thinking must meet. I don't think fallacies alone are a useful constraint to focus on here, in this topic.
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Re: Are viruses living things?
According to Aristotle, who invented "logic", and who composed the first list of fallacies, avoiding fallacies is critical. It is the foundational first step. Everything else you mentioned Pattern-chaser is secondary.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 17th, 2020, 11:41 amTrue. But for your own thinking to be useful it must be cogent, consistent, and many other things too. Avoiding fallacies is important, but it's only one of (very) many criteria that the results of our thinking must meet. I don't think fallacies alone are a useful constraint to focus on here, in this topic.
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Re: Are viruses living things?
You write as though I defend the use of logical fallacies, which I do not. I merely observe that there are an infinite number of pitfalls our pronouncements must avoid, and logical fallacy is only one of them. Perhaps it might be more useful to concentrate on making our pronouncements useful and worthwhile instead?h_k_s wrote: ↑April 18th, 2020, 5:16 pmAccording to Aristotle, who invented "logic", and who composed the first list of fallacies, avoiding fallacies is critical. It is the foundational first step. Everything else you mentioned @Pattern-chaser is secondary.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑April 17th, 2020, 11:41 am
True. But for your own thinking to be useful it must be cogent, consistent, and many other things too. Avoiding fallacies is important, but it's only one of (very) many criteria that the results of our thinking must meet. I don't think fallacies alone are a useful constraint to focus on here, in this topic.
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Re: Are viruses living things?
See for that :
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6501800095
So they seem to be more a self replicating toxine which is sometimes in interaction with bacterias and other viral strains.
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Re: Are viruses living things?
Personally, I don't believe that dividing lines exist objectively in nature, but are instead convenient human inventions. As example, all living things are made up entirely of dead stuff like carbon, nitrogen, water etc.
Where ever we find it convenient and useful for some particular conversation.At what level of complexity do we declare "here is life"?
The following is pretty cliche, but it hit me with new clarity today. We think of viruses as pathological agents which our body attempts to repel with our antibodies etc. From the human perspective, we good, virus bad.
If we change the perspective to that of the biosphere as a whole, we are the pathological agents, and viruses are the antibody.
Perhaps this example helps illustrate how quickly definitions which seem rock solid can dissolve in to chaos?
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