Oy vey.
In other words, what's the etymology of the term "atom"?
If you are stuck in 19th century science, that is.
Having thought hard about them, I believe these things because they strike me as true (correct, accurate). Alternative ontological category schemes or models are not excluded logically, but ontological plausibility and acceptability aren't just based on mere formal consistency and mere logical possibility. The concept of ontological coherence is broader and weaker than the concept of logical coherence. For example, I cannot derive a logical contradiction (p & ~p) from the concept of substrateless events or processes, but it doesn't follow that there are ontologically possible worlds where such events or processes occur. Ontological possibility includes logical possibility, but logical possibility doesn't include ontological possibility. Substrateless events or processes are formally possible, but I don't think they are really possible, their very conception striking me as ontologically incomprehensible and incoherent.Dolphin42 wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 3:23 amDo you believe these things because:=Consul wrote:I believe neither in immanent universals nor in transcendent ones, because I believe properties are particulars rather than universals. I also believe that property-particulars are both generically and rigidly substrate-dependent. That is, if a is a K having the property F, then F doesn't only depend for its existence on the existence of Ks, but also on the existence of the one K which is a.
1. They are your personal taste; you like the cut of their jib.
2. You think that it would be logically inconsistent to believe otherwise. (as in the example above)
3. You think that this belief leads to propositions that more accurately describe and predict what is observed to be the case than possible alternative beliefs do.
Or some combination of the above?
Etymologically speaking, atoms are uncuttables or indivisibles. A mereological atom is a thing lacking proper parts, so atoms in this sense are noncomposite simples. The atoms physicists and chemists talk about are not noncomposite simples, since they do have proper parts.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 12:38 pmOy vey. In other words, what's the etymology of the term "atom"?
Right. Which was clearly what he was referring to.Consul wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 1:16 pmEtymologically speaking, atoms are uncuttables or indivisibles.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 12:38 pm Oy vey. In other words, what's the etymology of the term "atom"?
Perhaps, but "irreducible" and "indivisible" aren't synonyms.
In the context of talking about the definition of "atom," when someone says that the definition is "irreducible," you should be able to figure out that they're using the term in the sense of "indivisible." We're talking about basic comprehension skills there.
It appears that there are. Most famous quote relating to the proliferation of particles in the standard model:Sculptor1 wrote:It all makes me think there there is something more than the 3 main particles.
If you speak of matter (or energy) and its substrates. If matter has a substrate, what is the substrate's substrate? If it lacks one, then it is by definition "free-floating". It may be elephants all he way down, or may not.Consul wrote: ↑June 6th, 2020, 7:48 pm:?:
A property had by a substance isn't "free-floating".
A property qua Platonic, transcendent universal is generically substrate-independent in the sense that the number of its instances can be 0, whereas a property qua Aristotelian, immanent universal is generically substrate-dependent in the sense that the number of its instances must be ≥1.
I believe neither in immanent universals nor in transcendent ones, because I believe properties are particulars rather than universals. I also believe that property-particulars are both generically and rigidly substrate-dependent. That is, if a is a K having the property F, then F doesn't only depend for its existence on the existence of Ks, but also on the existence of the one K which is a.
It all makes me think there there is something more than the 3 main particles. Whatever that might be, it does offer consistency.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 7:47 amIt all makes me think there there is something more than the 3 main particles. Whatever that might be, it does offer consistency.Greta wrote: ↑June 6th, 2020, 6:29 pm
If I had even a tenth of your nous about half a century ago, that is exactly what I might have said when being confused in chemistry class. Then again, our brains aren't evolved to make sense of reality, at least not beyond finding ways of staying alive long enough to do the horizontal tango and then dealing with the consequences of that act.
When we go smaller than the 3 (electrons, neutrons, and protons) we get into the treacherous are of QM and indeterminism - no wonder if our model is less than perfect in the first place. But even with the double slot experiment we get a perfectly predictable unpredictability.
I think we are going to have to wait until someone figures out a better model. On the other end of the scale the cosmologists had improved the model from early attempts Aristotle aristarchus to Ptolemy until Newton nailed it down, but the thing keeps looking shaky. I've no doubt that we shall reach a point where further descriptive explanations fail us as the metaphors we use run out of common sense. Maybe we are here already?
Do you think the fact that phenomenal mental experience has no place in our current scientific model of what the universe is made of and how it works suggests we need an improved model?I think we are going to have to wait until someone figures out a better model. On the other end of the scale the cosmologists had improved the model from early attempts Aristotle aristarchus to Ptolemy until Newton nailed it down, but the thing keeps looking shaky. I've no doubt that we shall reach a point where further descriptive explanations fail us as the metaphors we use run out of common sense. Maybe we are here already?
Matter (material substances, materials) doesn't need a substrate because it is a substrate itself.
No, they are not, because substrates or substances aren't (complexes of) attributes. Nothing, no thing can be the properties it has!Greta wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 5:53 pmYet the divisions are ultimately based on human perceptions. Consider the categories of "liquid" and "gas". It all seems straightforward to us at our scale, but not to a million bacteria in a gas droplet. In fact, even the fairyfly, the smallest insect, essentially "swims" through the air using paddle-like wings. Consider solids. Compared with a neutron star, planets like the Earth are not solid, akin to large balls of thin gas. So, when we think of entities and their substrates, consider these relatively artificial divisions between states of what is really just one thing with zones of relative concentration and order or dissipation and chaos.
This is a long-winded way of saying that substrates and the entities they carry are fundamentally the same thing.
Footnote:Consul wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 8:24 pm QUOTE>
"In the British Empiricist tradition, 'substance' has usually meant the factor of particularity, what Locke called the substratum. The great hostility to substance that you find in the British tradition has been hostility to substratum. Let us call the substratum substance in the thin sense, or the thin particular. But now notice that substance can also mean substratum plus properties. This is a usage that we associate with Aristotle and the Scholastic philosophers. Let us call this substance in the thick sense. Substratum plus properties constitutes the thick particular. Aristotle's primary substances—individual things, this man, this horse—are thick particulars."
(Armstrong, D. M. Universals: An Opinionated Introduction. Boulder, CO: Westview, 1989. p. 60)
<QUOTE
It's still all ultimately one thing, just as the atmosphere, ocean and land are ultimately one thing.Consul wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 8:24 pmMatter (material substances, materials) doesn't need a substrate because it is a substrate itself.
No, they are not, because substrates or substances aren't (complexes of) attributes. Nothing, no thing can be the properties it has!Greta wrote: ↑June 7th, 2020, 5:53 pmYet the divisions are ultimately based on human perceptions. Consider the categories of "liquid" and "gas". It all seems straightforward to us at our scale, but not to a million bacteria in a gas droplet. In fact, even the fairyfly, the smallest insect, essentially "swims" through the air using paddle-like wings. Consider solids. Compared with a neutron star, planets like the Earth are not solid, akin to large balls of thin gas. So, when we think of entities and their substrates, consider these relatively artificial divisions between states of what is really just one thing with zones of relative concentration and order or dissipation and chaos.
This is a long-winded way of saying that substrates and the entities they carry are fundamentally the same thing.
By the way, there is an incoherent conception of substances as things composed of attributes plus a "bare", i.e. (intrinsically) attributeless, substrate. The concept of an attributeless substrate of attributes or a propertyless bearer of properties is plainly self-contradictory. But this is not my conception of substrates or substances!
By the way, the concept of a substance or an object is ambiguous insofar it refers either to "thin things" or to "thick things", i.e. either to substances or objects qua substrates regarded in abstraction from their attributes or to substances or objects regarded in conjunction with their attributes. Thick things have their properties as parts, and are thus partially (but not totally) identical with them, whereas thin things do not have their properties as parts, and are thus not even partially identical with them. But they certainly possess properties, because thin things aren't bare, i.e. propertyless, things.
QUOTE>
"In the British Empiricist tradition, 'substance' has usually meant the factor of particularity, what Locke called the substratum. The great hostility to substance that you find in the British tradition has been hostility to substratum. Let us call the substratum substance in the thin sense, or the thin particular. But now notice that substance can also mean substratum plus properties. This is a usage that we associate with Aristotle and the Scholastic philosophers. Let us call this substance in the thick sense. Substratum plus properties constitutes the thick particular. Aristotle's primary substances—individual things, this man, this horse—are thick particulars."
(Armstrong, D. M. Universals: An Opinionated Introduction. Boulder, CO: Westview, 1989. p. 60)
<QUOTE
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