At what point you're still you?

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Alpha1
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At what point you're still you?

Post by Alpha1 »

Scenario 1: 1 half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT A and the other half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT B. Who are you then? Are they both you or you are the robot with the most identical thought processing, personality and memories with your human self? pls try scenario 2

Scenario 2: if you upload your consciousness in COMPUTER A and COMPUTER B copies your consciousness, disregarding the originality, who are you then? if you say both because they have the same datas then you are reproducible. If I reproduce another copy of those data would that be you? pls try scenario 3

Scenario 3: Supposed you had an accident affecting your body mostly and requires your brain to be transplanted to another synthetic body. You then wake up without memories of who you are and you're thought processing change and personality turn exactly opposite of who you are originally, is this still you? Except for your brain, everything in this synthetic body is new with regards in the set of data, information and hardware can we still call this synthetic person to be you?

At what point do we draw the line whether or not you're still you? are we all just streams of data and information and thought processing? if so, if we can make a human exactly like you in appearance and everything would that be you? what if we replace you with him, would you matter if you're just reproducible?
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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm Scenario 1: 1 half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT A and the other half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT B. Who are you then? Are they both you or you are the robot with the most identical thought processing, personality and memories with your human self? pls try scenario 2

Scenario 2: if you upload your consciousness in COMPUTER A and COMPUTER B copies your consciousness, disregarding the originality, who are you then? if you say both because they have the same datas then you are reproducible. If I reproduce another copy of those data would that be you? pls try scenario 3

Scenario 3: Supposed you had an accident affecting your body mostly and requires your brain to be transplanted to another synthetic body. You then wake up without memories of who you are and you're thought processing change and personality turn exactly opposite of who you are originally, is this still you? Except for your brain, everything in this synthetic body is new with regards in the set of data, information and hardware can we still call this synthetic person to be you?

At what point do we draw the line whether or not you're still you? are we all just streams of data and information and thought processing? if so, if we can make a human exactly like you in appearance and everything would that be you? what if we replace you with him, would you matter if you're just reproducible?
In scenario one, the robot with your left hemisphere is going to have lots of questions about the new body. The robot with your right hemisphere may have some questions, but will not be able to ask them.

In scenario two, there are two computer copies of you that are not you. They may think they are you, but they would be mistaken. The third copy is just another copy.

In scenario three, the accident has radically changed you, but it is still you.
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by Terrapin Station »

On my view, you're still you when your present state has a contiguous, casual connections to previous states, where changes occur a bit at a time and not via a big chunk all of a sudden.

At this, you're never literally identical from moment to moment.

So re suddenly having half your brain in one location and half in another, neither location would be anything like you were prior to that change--that's too much of a change too suddenly.

Re the computer, there's no reason at present to believe that the idea of that is coherent. Your consciousness is the properties of the materials that comprise brains, in the exact structure, with the exact dynamic relations of your particular brain. There's no reason to believe that different materials, in different structures, undergoing different processes would have anything similar to the same properties.
Ecurb
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by Ecurb »

I'm always me. That's the problem. Try as I might, I can't get away from myself.

I also wish I could be elsewhere, but I'm always here.
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by Wossname »

Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm by Alpha1 » Yesterday, 3:54 am

Such questions are intriguing and debates date back at least as far as that concerning the ship of Theseus. I think there is merit in all three of the answers above. I wonder if it is possible that the answers to questions about identity might depend on who is asking and who is answering them?

Can we argue that, barring some dissociative disorder, a self is always itself to itself? Asked if you are you, you reply of course, who else could I be? Who do you think you are asking if not me? At any rate, it is me who is answering. So from your own POV you are always you. If you ask “am I me?”, then the reply must be “who wants to know”?

But external observers might see matters differently. A small change, and you are still recognisably you. But you might be changed to such an extent that the external observer decides you are fundamentally different, and no longer the person they once knew. Clearly the point at which such a decision is made is not clear and depends on the observer’s judgement. You are always you to you, though you may understand that you are different to how you once were. “Am I me?” is not the same question as “am I still the same as I was?” (We never are).

In scenario 1, the two robots would be cognitively and behaviourally quite different. I tentatively suggest that each robot might consider itself a rather different and diminished version of who it used to be. Observers might agree with that assessment or they might consider each robot to be so different that you are no longer the same person in either incarnation, but it would, I think, be a matter of individual judgement.

In scenario 2 I agree with Marvin. A copy of you is just that.

Scenario 3 seems a bit tricky. Marvin suggests you are still you though changed beyond recognition. I confess I am not sure here. I think others are unlikely to agree that you are still you. You may look like a different person and you talk and behave like a different person, and if it walks like a duck etc.. Asked if you are you, you reply yes, but you do not recognise the person other people claim you once were. You are you, but you are not him/her. Without memories, you are effectively cast in the role of an observer regarding your former self, and that person is a stranger to you.
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm Scenario 1: 1 half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT A and the other half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT B. Who are you then? Are they both you or you are the robot with the most identical thought processing, personality and memories with your human self? pls try scenario 2
There is an surgical operation which divides the brain in two. I should look into the implications of that.

Scenario 2: if you upload your consciousness in COMPUTER A and COMPUTER B copies your consciousness, disregarding the originality, who are you then? if you say both because they have the same datas then you are reproducible. If I reproduce another copy of those data would that be you? pls try scenario 3
You can't copy the Mona Lisa with a blunt stick in the sand, and expect it to look the same.

Scenario 3: Supposed you had an accident affecting your body mostly and requires your brain to be transplanted to another synthetic body. You then wake up without memories of who you are and you're thought processing change and personality turn exactly opposite of who you are originally, is this still you? Except for your brain, everything in this synthetic body is new with regards in the set of data, information and hardware can we still call this synthetic person to be you?
If the transplant were possible (which it is not).. Why have you lost your memories? If those memories are lost, then the transplant aspect of the question adds nothing.
Lost of memories implies a lost of personhood.

At what point do we draw the line whether or not you're still you? are we all just streams of data and information and thought processing? if so, if we can make a human exactly like you in appearance and everything would that be you? what if we replace you with him, would you matter if you're just reproducible?
It is not possible to make a totally identical copy, since it would occupy a different part of time/space. But if you want to think about this question you already have the example of identical twins. Twins start to differentiate in early gestation.
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Count Lucanor
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by Count Lucanor »

Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm Scenario 1: 1 half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT A and the other half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT B. Who are you then? Are they both you or you are the robot with the most identical thought processing, personality and memories with your human self? pls try scenario 2
At this point I'll be already dead and neither ROBOT A or B will be even close to taking up myself. So there will not be me anymore.
Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm Scenario 2: if you upload your consciousness in COMPUTER A and COMPUTER B copies your consciousness, disregarding the originality, who are you then? if you say both because they have the same datas then you are reproducible. If I reproduce another copy of those data would that be you? pls try scenario 3
Consciousness is not a computer program, neither is the brain a computer. Neither of these are me, they are not even people.
Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm Scenario 3: Supposed you had an accident affecting your body mostly and requires your brain to be transplanted to another synthetic body. You then wake up without memories of who you are and you're thought processing change and personality turn exactly opposite of who you are originally, is this still you? Except for your brain, everything in this synthetic body is new with regards in the set of data, information and hardware can we still call this synthetic person to be you?
A person is not his brain alone, is an organism. Can you have a synthetic body with synthetic nerve endings, synthetic neurotransmitters and so on? Nice for a sci-fi movie, but too unreal.
Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm At what point do we draw the line whether or not you're still you? are we all just streams of data and information and thought processing? if so, if we can make a human exactly like you in appearance and everything would that be you? what if we replace you with him, would you matter if you're just reproducible?
Organisms are not machines run by computer programs.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
The_architect
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by The_architect »

In all scenarios you are you. Just because a part of you is missing or altered, you remain you. Sadly, bad things happen to people that changed them dramatically. Memories do get eradicated, body parts do get taken, brains do get destroyed.
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by h_k_s »

Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm Scenario 1: 1 half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT A and the other half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT B. Who are you then? Are they both you or you are the robot with the most identical thought processing, personality and memories with your human self? pls try scenario 2

Scenario 2: if you upload your consciousness in COMPUTER A and COMPUTER B copies your consciousness, disregarding the originality, who are you then? if you say both because they have the same datas then you are reproducible. If I reproduce another copy of those data would that be you? pls try scenario 3

Scenario 3: Supposed you had an accident affecting your body mostly and requires your brain to be transplanted to another synthetic body. You then wake up without memories of who you are and you're thought processing change and personality turn exactly opposite of who you are originally, is this still you? Except for your brain, everything in this synthetic body is new with regards in the set of data, information and hardware can we still call this synthetic person to be you?

At what point do we draw the line whether or not you're still you? are we all just streams of data and information and thought processing? if so, if we can make a human exactly like you in appearance and everything would that be you? what if we replace you with him, would you matter if you're just reproducible?
If these transplants were feasible, then I would say that twins had been created.

And each then would have become a new distinct conscious entity.

This is like mitosis, where cells split to form two new cells.

"You" would have ceased to exist, and two new unique "you's" would have been created in your stead.
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Cassaya
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by Cassaya »

This is the old ship question.

As long you/your conciseness recognize yourself as yourself. You are you. At least that is it, what you would believe.

Each copy can and will develop independently because they will get exposed to different inputs and perspectives, therefore will evolve differently.
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Jing or Jang
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Re: At what point you're still you?

Post by Jing or Jang »

Alpha1 wrote: June 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm Scenario 1: 1 half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT A and the other half of your brain was transplanted to ROBOT B. Who are you then? Are they both you or you are the robot with the most identical thought processing, personality and memories with your human self? pls try scenario 2

Scenario 2: if you upload your consciousness in COMPUTER A and COMPUTER B copies your consciousness, disregarding the originality, who are you then? if you say both because they have the same datas then you are reproducible. If I reproduce another copy of those data would that be you? pls try scenario 3

Scenario 3: Supposed you had an accident affecting your body mostly and requires your brain to be transplanted to another synthetic body. You then wake up without memories of who you are and you're thought processing change and personality turn exactly opposite of who you are originally, is this still you? Except for your brain, everything in this synthetic body is new with regards in the set of data, information and hardware can we still call this synthetic person to be you?

At what point do we draw the line whether or not you're still you? are we all just streams of data and information and thought processing? if so, if we can make a human exactly like you in appearance and everything would that be you? what if we replace you with him, would you matter if you're just reproducible?
You are always "you":
You, the devout man of the cloth standing before me just as much as you were "you" when you shot that man in Reno just to watch him die.
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