Is Science Objective?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Post Reply
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by RJG »

LuckyR wrote:..."logic" or more accurately "guesswork" is very prone to errors…
Not so. There is no "guesswork" whatsoever to deductive logic. Deductive logic is as objective and straightforward as mathematics.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by LuckyR »

RJG wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 8:47 am
LuckyR wrote:..."logic" or more accurately "guesswork" is very prone to errors…
Not so. There is no "guesswork" whatsoever to deductive logic. Deductive logic is as objective and straightforward as mathematics.
Well, experience doesn't lie. Experiments commonly disprove logically derived hypotheses, so either your definition of deductive logic is so broad so as to be useless, or you are using it inappropriately.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by RJG »

LuckyR wrote:Well, experience doesn't lie. Experiments commonly disprove logically derived hypotheses...
Can you give a specific example where an experiment's result didn't follow the logic?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by LuckyR »

RJG wrote: February 3rd, 2022, 2:28 pm
LuckyR wrote:Well, experience doesn't lie. Experiments commonly disprove logically derived hypotheses...
Can you give a specific example where an experiment's result didn't follow the logic?
Well, you do bring up (tangentially) the separate issue that positive (confirmatory) research findings are much, much easier to get published in scientific journals than negative (nonconfirmatory) research. This is called publication bias and is currently considered a flaw or weakness in the modern scientific community. Now to your point, while negative studies are somewhat uncommonly found in high profile journals (as explained above) don't confuse that with the reality that numerous (admittedly unpublished) research studies do not support their hypotheses.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by RJG »

Lucky, sorry I don't follow. What specifically is the sound deductive logic that is being contradicted by science?

Note: science can never contradict (overrule) sound deductive logic. For example, if something is logically impossible, then no amount of science can make the impossible, suddenly possible.

Logic trumps Science.
Raymond
Posts: 317
Joined: January 23rd, 2022, 6:47 pm

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Raymond »

The only way for science to progress is to be objective. The particle physicists wants her preons to be objective, the wants chemist his molecules to be objective, the molecular biologist her DNA, the neuro scientist his spike potentials and neuron connection strengths, the astronomer the precession of Mercury, the cosmologists their inflation, and many more. Why shouldn't their views be objectively true? You can keep on trying to falsify but there will come a moment one can say something is objectively true. Though exactly what's objectively true can be different from person to person. You can consider continuous media objectively true or granular. Hidden variables and pure chance are both viable theories of QM (untill experiment can decide). Evolution theory can be based on a selfish gene (central dogma in molecular biology) or it can be based on altruistic genes (contrary to dogma, giving control to the organism leading to Lamarckian evolution). Also here experiment has to decide, though some observations poit to
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

RJG wrote: February 4th, 2022, 9:56 am If something is logically impossible, then no amount of science can make the impossible, suddenly possible.
Well yes, I suppose so. But, when we look really carefully, we can sometimes see that our judgement of something as "impossible" or "possible" was mistaken, or that we misunderstood, perhaps because our understanding was incomplete. I think the best we can do in this arena is to say that something is impossible given our understanding of it, which may be wrong, and is definitely incomplete. 🤔
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Raymond wrote: April 1st, 2022, 7:45 pm Why shouldn't their views be objectively true? You can keep on trying to falsify but there will come a moment one can say something is objectively true. Though exactly what's objectively true can be different from person to person.
This is a very unusual use of the word "objective", especially on a philosophy forum. 🤔🤔🤔 You seem to be equating objectivity with subjectivity, or perhaps claiming that objectivity is subjective? I'm confused. [This isn't unusual. 😉]
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Raymond
Posts: 317
Joined: January 23rd, 2022, 6:47 pm

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Raymond »

"This is a very unusual use of the word "objective", especially on a philosophy forum. 🤔🤔🤔 You seem to be equating objectivity with subjectivity, or perhaps claiming that objectivity is subjective?"

Well, since Xenophanes introduced his one and only, unimaginable Supergod, and a one and only objective unknowable (only approximate) reality saw the daylight in ancient Greece (Plato's mathematical heaven), this idea got a firm grip in western thinking. But the idea can be criticized. Why should there be one such story? Why can't they live side by side? There are as many objective realities as there are creatures. You can of course call this another objective reality, but its different from an objective objective reality, if you know what I mean.

"I'm confused. [This isn't unusual.]"

Haha! We all are here!
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote:This is a very unusual use of the word "objective", especially on a philosophy forum. 🤔🤔🤔 You seem to be equating objectivity with subjectivity, or perhaps claiming that objectivity is subjective?
Raymond wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 11:24 am Well, since Xenophanes introduced his one and only, unimaginable Supergod, and a one and only objective unknowable (only approximate) reality saw the daylight in ancient Greece (Plato's mathematical heaven), this idea got a firm grip in western thinking. But the idea can be criticized. Why should there be one such story? Why can't they live side by side? There are as many objective realities as there are creatures. You can of course call this another objective reality, but its different from an objective objective reality, if you know what I mean.
OK, so we have been talking at cross-purposes. By "objective", you mean what I would mean if I wrote "subjective". You aren't referring to anything absolute, but only to your own perspective. That's OK, but you have to realise that's not what most people mean when they write "objective" in a post to a philosophy forum! 😉
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Raymond
Posts: 317
Joined: January 23rd, 2022, 6:47 pm

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Raymond »

"OK, so we have been talking at cross-purposes. By "objective", you mean what I would mean if I wrote "subjective". You aren't referring to anything absolute, but only to your own perspective. That's OK, but you have to realise that's not what most people mean when they write "objective" in a post to a philosophy forum! 😉"

Hi! My laptop is dead and needs a lap up badly (if still possible, because she's over six years old and all data in it might possible be lost...), so I can't quote as supposed to (except the whole comment, which can be rather cofusing).So I quote like this, hoping you will notice.

I refer to one absolute truth also. The same for everyone. But I don't think there is only one such truth. I know this sounds paradoxically. As said, one truth is the other's fairytale, one's reason the other's insanity, and one's justice can be other's way of hel.

So the objective truth of Dawkins ("The Selfish Gene") is a different reality than the view that all creatures act out the lives of the gods. Though Dawkins view is just one interpretation of evolution, like there are various interpretations of Christianity. His view is based on the dogma of molecular biology, which is an unproven assumption, and the alternative is Lamarckian evolution. You can see "just" evolution as a cause of life, but does it render meaning? For evolutionists maybe. One can deny evolution altogether. In my absolute truth it exists but as a means only, not as a process in a universe that just exists. The laws of physics are too stupid to create themselves.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Raymond wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 8:56 am I refer to one absolute truth also. The same for everyone. But I don't think there is only one such truth.
Of course there is more than one such 'truth'. No-one has suggested otherwise. But if a particular truth is "absolute", "the same for everyone", then it is universal - not just one person's opinion. I will not point out this obvious truth again. I've done so enough already. I'm done here. Take care. 👍
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Raymond
Posts: 317
Joined: January 23rd, 2022, 6:47 pm

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Raymond »

The point is that different people don't consider their truth an opinion but as a universal truth valid and applicable to everything and everyone. And we are taught that there is just one such truth. But why there can't be more? Not as some new overarching truth but just different ones. In old Greece it was once defined as the only one for all. Which it is. But this only one depends on who you ask about it. Its hard to imagine, I know, but that's because our brains are prepared to think in only one truth.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Good science is objective.

But recently I have been studying the methods of epidemiology in relation to dietary advice and have found the conclusions hoplessly wrong , biased and partisan, especially where food companies such as the sugar association, Coca-Cola and others pushing sugar are co-funders in the process.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Is Science Objective?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 12:35 pm Good science is objective.

But recently I have been studying the methods of epidemiology in relation to dietary advice and have found the conclusions hoplessly wrong , biased and partisan, especially where food companies such as the sugar association, Coca-Cola and others pushing sugar are co-funders in the process.
eg on U tube
Nina Teicholz - 'Red Meat and Health'
402,726 views25 Mar 2018
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021