Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Consul »

FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:04 pmThe primary issue with this perception, from my perspective, is the concept of "intelligence". It's a word we toss around and hold with such great importance, yet society cannot come to an agreeance as to what precisely it is.
QUOTE>
"The Definition of Intelligence: Intelligence, according to Webster’s New World College Dictionary (3rd ed.), is 'the ability to learn or understand from experience, ability to acquire and retain knowledge; mental ability' (Neufeldt, 1997, p. 702). Such a definition captures many facets of the nature of intelligence, but not necessarily those believed to be key by experts.

Two symposia have sought to ascertain the key features of intelligence according to experts in the field ('Intelligence and its Measurement', 1921; Sternberg & Detterman, 1986). Critical elements of the definition of intelligence, according to experts, are (1) adaptation in order to meet the demands of the environment effectively, (2) elementary processes of perception and attention, (3) higher-level processes of abstract reasoning, mental representation, problem solving, decision making, (4) ability to learn, and (5) effective behavior in response to problem situations. Some experts, however, have been content to define intelligence operationally, simply as the intelligence quotient, or IQ (Boring, 1923). These definitions rely on tests such as those originated by Binet and Simon (1916) to measure judgmental abilities or of Wechsler (1939) to measure verbal and performance abilities.

Laypeople also can be asked to define intelligence, and it turns out that their definitions differ from expert definitions in placing somewhat greater emphasis on social competence skills. In one study, for example, laypeople defined intelligence in terms of three broad classes of skills: (1) practical problem solving, (2) verbal ability, and (3) social competence (Sternberg, Conway, Ketron, & Bernstein, 1981). Definitions can vary somewhat across occupations (Sternberg, 1985)."

("Human Intelligence." In The Concise Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology and Behavioral Science, 3rd ed., edited by W. Edward Craighead and Charles B. Nemeroff, 442-444. Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley & Sons, 2004. pp. 442-3)
<QUOTE
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:04 pm The primary issue with this perception, from my perspective, is the concept of "intelligence". It's a word we toss around and hold with such great importance, yet society cannot come to an agreement as to what precisely it is.
Yes, "consciousness" is another such term. There are quite a few, if you think about it; things that we have a vague and general understanding of, but nothing specific or precise. It brings spice to discussions such as this one. 😉😋
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
FranknBerry
Posts: 34
Joined: April 25th, 2021, 9:54 pm

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by FranknBerry »

Consul wrote: September 6th, 2021, 9:41 pm
FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:04 pmThe primary issue with this perception, from my perspective, is the concept of "intelligence". It's a word we toss around and hold with such great importance, yet society cannot come to an agreeance as to what precisely it is.
QUOTE>
"The Definition of Intelligence: Intelligence, according to Webster’s New World College Dictionary (3rd ed.), is 'the ability to learn or understand from experience, ability to acquire and retain knowledge; mental ability' (Neufeldt, 1997, p. 702). Such a definition captures many facets of the nature of intelligence, but not necessarily those believed to be key by experts.

Two symposia have sought to ascertain the key features of intelligence according to experts in the field ('Intelligence and its Measurement', 1921; Sternberg & Detterman, 1986). Critical elements of the definition of intelligence, according to experts, are (1) adaptation in order to meet the demands of the environment effectively, (2) elementary processes of perception and attention, (3) higher-level processes of abstract reasoning, mental representation, problem solving, decision making, (4) ability to learn, and (5) effective behavior in response to problem situations. Some experts, however, have been content to define intelligence operationally, simply as the intelligence quotient, or IQ (Boring, 1923). These definitions rely on tests such as those originated by Binet and Simon (1916) to measure judgmental abilities or of Wechsler (1939) to measure verbal and performance abilities.

Laypeople also can be asked to define intelligence, and it turns out that their definitions differ from expert definitions in placing somewhat greater emphasis on social competence skills. In one study, for example, laypeople defined intelligence in terms of three broad classes of skills: (1) practical problem solving, (2) verbal ability, and (3) social competence (Sternberg, Conway, Ketron, & Bernstein, 1981). Definitions can vary somewhat across occupations (Sternberg, 1985)."

("Human Intelligence." In The Concise Corsini Encyclopedia of Psychology and Behavioral Science, 3rd ed., edited by W. Edward Craighead and Charles B. Nemeroff, 442-444. Hoboken, NJ: John Wiley & Sons, 2004. pp. 442-3)
<QUOTE
Those are certainly some ways to define it. There are an infinite number of other ways as well. This text demonstrating that even so-called "experts" disagree on what precisely "intelligence" is. As no two people perceive the world in the exact same way it stands to reason then that no two people would ever define "intelligence" as exactly the same. The overlap that occurs between these many varied perceptions is due to people having been exposed to a particular definition as provided by Webster's. People repeat what they hear after it has undergone translation to better fit what pre-exists within the individuals unique "mind". As everyone has a different way of defining "intelligence" a more appropriate question arises as to what the concept of "intelligence" is reference to? What underlying, static aspect of who we are gave rise to the perceptual translation of "intelligence"?
FranknBerry
Posts: 34
Joined: April 25th, 2021, 9:54 pm

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by FranknBerry »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 7th, 2021, 5:05 am
FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:04 pm The primary issue with this perception, from my perspective, is the concept of "intelligence". It's a word we toss around and hold with such great importance, yet society cannot come to an agreement as to what precisely it is.
Yes, "consciousness" is another such term. There are quite a few, if you think about it; things that we have a vague and general understanding of, but nothing specific or precise. It brings spice to discussions such as this one. 😉😋
I think that trying to understand what intelligence, consciousness, life, etc. are will only lead to further divisions of perception among the masses. Instead, attempting to understand what these concepts are representations of in "nature" would likely lead to a greater unification of perceptions. What does the behavior of perception have in similarity to the behavior of everything else? If perception itself is of a singular behavior then it is likely everything that is developed via perception is of the same singular behavior. Variant perspectives/translations of one thing.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

FranknBerry wrote: September 7th, 2021, 2:54 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 7th, 2021, 5:05 am
FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:04 pm The primary issue with this perception, from my perspective, is the concept of "intelligence". It's a word we toss around and hold with such great importance, yet society cannot come to an agreement as to what precisely it is.
Yes, "consciousness" is another such term. There are quite a few, if you think about it; things that we have a vague and general understanding of, but nothing specific or precise. It brings spice to discussions such as this one. 😉😋
I think that trying to understand what intelligence, consciousness, life, etc. are will only lead to further divisions of perception among the masses. Instead, attempting to understand what these concepts are representations of in "nature" would likely lead to a greater unification of perceptions. What does the behavior of perception have in similarity to the behavior of everything else? If perception itself is of a singular behavior then it is likely everything that is developed via perception is of the same singular behavior. Variant perspectives/translations of one thing.
I wonder if the new topic I just started is relevant to what we are discussing here?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
psyreporter
Posts: 1022
Joined: August 15th, 2019, 7:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by psyreporter »

Gertie wrote: September 6th, 2021, 8:25 pm Psy
1) when the brain of a whale is compared with that of a human, what can explain that a human is 'more intelligent' than a whale?
Depends on your criteria I suppose. But trying to assess what whale-intelligence might be like would be tricky.
Yes, you may be right. Perhaps whales have evolved a higher state of intelligence that the human does not know anything about. For example, wouldn't you wonder what an Orca would do with brain technology that presumably can process much more information faster than a human brain can, in a part that in a human brain is correlated with conscious experience, reasoning and thinking?

When as measure for intelligence is taken the ability to excel in science and philosophy. Can it be made evident with knowledge of the human brain that whales are incapable?

As it appears, it isn't possible to answer that question, and it is certainly not justified as of 2021 to hide behind the argument that brain science is in its infancy.

The ability to excel in science and philosophy, i.e. 'human conscious experience', seems to profoundly differ from 'whale experience'. If - in comparison with a whale brain - it cannot easily be shown as of today why a human brain would 'produce' that capacity, then it is questionable that the brain is the origin of that capacity.
Gertie wrote: September 6th, 2021, 8:25 pm
2) what theory could explain human intelligence when the 'origin' is not the brain?
A theory which suggests that conscious experience is fundamental, rather than an emergent property of material processes (of brains).
Then, why is a whale not capable of science and philosophy on a level comparable as that of humans? Why did whales not invent advanced technologies in the many millions of years that they have lived before humans, with their 'advanced brain technology' that is similar to today's human brain technology linked to conscious experience, reasoning and thinking?
Gertie wrote: September 6th, 2021, 8:25 pm
3) is there an indication that the quality 'human being' as origin for its intelligence resides outside the scope of physiology? (ie that 'human being' as a 'kind' is somehow developed and maintained outside the scope of physiology)
Neural correlation makes that look unlikely. Whatever the 'origin' of conscious experience (which intelligence is an aspect of), we know brain states correlate with mental states, so there is a relationship there. This indicates a human brain 'manifests' conscious experience differently to a whale brain because of the brain differences - same with you and me but the differences between us are smaller. It also indicates some sort of relationship between specific material processes (brain states) and experiential states. So it looks unlikely there are independant fully formed 'human being kinds' like souls existing independantly of brains, even if conscious experience is somehow fundamental. It's possible, but that's not the way it looks like it works, some kind of mind-body relationship exists.
The suggestion was more in favor of a sort of 'master mind' of the human kind (not individual ghosts) but perhaps it could also be much more complex than that, with diverse kinds standing in relation (e.g. an 'animal mind kind' as well).

With regard brain states being an indication that the human brain 'manifests' consciousness by itself.

What about people with 5-10% brain tissue that live a normal life, and sometimes even have a high IQ and manage to achieve an academic degree?

"Any theory of consciousness has to be able to explain why a person like that, who's missing 90 percent of his neurons, still exhibits normal behaviour," Axel Cleeremans, a professor philosophy of cognitive science from the Université Libre de Bruxelles in Belgium"

If the brain is like a trumpet (music instrument), hitting dents into the trumpet does not prove that the music 'originates' from the trumpet. An experienced musician could learn to bypass the dents and play pure music despite the anomalies in the trumpet.

The case of people who manage to live a normal and healthy life with a tiny fraction of a brain certainly provides a strong clue that the 'brain state' theory of the human mind is invalid.

For a visual idea of what it means when a human manages to find a wife, start a family with children and hold a job up until 45 years of age when it was discovered in a random hospital check that he has merely 10% brain tissue:

tiny bit of a brain:
100%: ####################
10%: ##

--

With regard whale intelligence research.

What is the reason that a serious attempt to decode whale language was never initiated until 2021? Whale language may be more complex than human language.

It seems to need philosophy:

(2021) Groundbreaking effort launched to decode whale language
If humans were ever to decode the language of whales, or even determine if whales possessed something we might truly call language, we’d need to pair their clicks with the context, which would entail a challenging inter-specie philosophical endeavor.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... -of-whales

The website https://whalescientists.com/ was founded in 2016.

(2021) What do we know about intelligence in whales and dolphins?
https://whalescientists.com/intelligenc ... -dolphins/

It seems as if the human just started with considering whale intelligence.
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
User avatar
psyreporter
Posts: 1022
Joined: August 15th, 2019, 7:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by psyreporter »

FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:04 pm The primary issue with this perception, from my perspective, is the concept of "intelligence". It's a word we toss around and hold with such great importance, yet society cannot come to an agreeance as to what precisely it is. It is a subjective term that while possesses a general overlap among many is uniquely defined in every individual. It's subjectivity makes it significantly biased. We do things differently than a whale does, yet from our biased perspectives we naturally hold our behaviors to be "higher", "better", and "more evolved" than behaviors seen in other organisms.

When the question is observed as "why are humans smarter than whales despite smaller brains?" or "what defines the origin of human intelligence?" we become blind to the underlying questions that better get at the heart of what such perceptions are seeking. "Why are we different?" and "What is intelligence, truly?" Perception is a giant steaming pile of cow dung. It is a subjectively biased translation of what actually is. In a sense, it is an illusion. There is an underlying element of truth to every perception, but it's barely recognizable.

If a concept of intelligence existed among whales than they would undoubtedly perceive themselves as superior in intelligence than humans. We don't do what they do, and ultimately that's the true measure of intelligence in regards to perception.

Science is an associated term we are conditioned to perceive as objective in how existence is measured and defined. The only thing that makes it objective is perception.
Logically, when humans intend to use the term 'intelligence' as a comparative means, they will do so in the face of the obvious primary interest of all life forms, survival, paired with the idea that the ability to excel in science and philosophy, i.e. technological progress, is the only possible significant indicator of 'intelligence'.

From such a perspective, it is easy to consider whales as low intelligent life forms that swim a bit in the ocean for a million years and are pretty worthless otherwise.

Can it be said that it is otherwise? Is it possible to envision and describe an intelligence that is of greater importance than the capacity to excel in science and philosophy, i.e. the ability to achieve technological progress?

In the following article on dolphin intelligence and the future of philosophy, it is suggested that the ultimate state of being for life forms is to become something like a whale.

(2021) Dolphin intelligence and the future of philosophy
We don’t see evidence of supercivilisations across the galaxy because the only ones that persist are the ones that give up the risky path of technology and instead pursue immersion in nature.

Ageing civilisations either self-destruct or shift to become something like a whale. The Russian astrophysicist Vladimir M Lipunov speculated that, across the Universe, the scientific mindset recurrently evolves, discovers all there is to know and, having exhausted its compelling curiosity, proceeds to wither away and become like a whale.

By 1978, the philosophers Arkadiy Ursul and Yuri Shkolenko wrote of such conjectures – concerning the ‘possible rejection in the future of the “technological way” of development’ – and reflected that this would be tantamount to humanity’s ‘transformation into something like dolphins’.

https://aeon.co/essays/dolphin-intellig ... mic-future
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
FranknBerry
Posts: 34
Joined: April 25th, 2021, 9:54 pm

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by FranknBerry »

psyreporter wrote: September 8th, 2021, 4:15 pm
FranknBerry wrote: September 6th, 2021, 3:04 pm The primary issue with this perception, from my perspective, is the concept of "intelligence". It's a word we toss around and hold with such great importance, yet society cannot come to an agreeance as to what precisely it is. It is a subjective term that while possesses a general overlap among many is uniquely defined in every individual. It's subjectivity makes it significantly biased. We do things differently than a whale does, yet from our biased perspectives we naturally hold our behaviors to be "higher", "better", and "more evolved" than behaviors seen in other organisms.

When the question is observed as "why are humans smarter than whales despite smaller brains?" or "what defines the origin of human intelligence?" we become blind to the underlying questions that better get at the heart of what such perceptions are seeking. "Why are we different?" and "What is intelligence, truly?" Perception is a giant steaming pile of cow dung. It is a subjectively biased translation of what actually is. In a sense, it is an illusion. There is an underlying element of truth to every perception, but it's barely recognizable.

If a concept of intelligence existed among whales than they would undoubtedly perceive themselves as superior in intelligence than humans. We don't do what they do, and ultimately that's the true measure of intelligence in regards to perception.

Science is an associated term we are conditioned to perceive as objective in how existence is measured and defined. The only thing that makes it objective is perception.
Logically, when humans intend to use the term 'intelligence' as a comparative means, they will do so in the face of the obvious primary interest of all life forms, survival, paired with the idea that the ability to excel in science and philosophy, i.e. technological progress, is the only possible significant indicator of 'intelligence'.

From such a perspective, it is easy to consider whales as low intelligent life forms that swim a bit in the ocean for a million years and are pretty worthless otherwise.

Can it be said that it is otherwise? Is it possible to envision and describe an intelligence that is of greater importance than the capacity to excel in science and philosophy, i.e. the ability to achieve technological progress?

In the following article on dolphin intelligence and the future of philosophy, it is suggested that the ultimate state of being for life forms is to become something like a whale.

(2021) Dolphin intelligence and the future of philosophy
We don’t see evidence of supercivilisations across the galaxy because the only ones that persist are the ones that give up the risky path of technology and instead pursue immersion in nature.

Ageing civilisations either self-destruct or shift to become something like a whale. The Russian astrophysicist Vladimir M Lipunov speculated that, across the Universe, the scientific mindset recurrently evolves, discovers all there is to know and, having exhausted its compelling curiosity, proceeds to wither away and become like a whale.

By 1978, the philosophers Arkadiy Ursul and Yuri Shkolenko wrote of such conjectures – concerning the ‘possible rejection in the future of the “technological way” of development’ – and reflected that this would be tantamount to humanity’s ‘transformation into something like dolphins’.

https://aeon.co/essays/dolphin-intellig ... mic-future
From such a perspective, yes. From other possible perspectives, no. Ultimately, when asking a question in regards to "intelligence" that question would need to indicate a particular perception of "intelligence" to which to gauge the question by as there are an infinite number of possible perceptions of "intelligence". In doing so, however, it must be noted that any answer is entirely perception based and not an accurate measure of how things truly exist in "nature". It would be no different than asking a question of who would win in a fight between superman and batman, but then narrowing down the definition of "fight" into one particular way.

Our entire perception of what is is determined by how concepts like "intelligence" exists in our "minds". Much of how the term "intelligent" exists is determined by our particular way of existing. If we are intelligent then what we do determines what is intelligence. We then measure all other life by that definition. Nothing but bias. I am biased in my own way of determining what is and what is not "intelligent" based on how it exists in my head. All things vary in how they exist. When applying terms like "intelligence" to particular variances then all things can be argued as more or less intelligent than all other things. Humans can be argued as being the most intelligent and the least intelligent types of organisms that exist. It comes down to what each individual defines as being representative of "intelligence".

With that aside, your particular way of defining it would indicate humans as demonstrating a higher degree of "intelligence" than whales and other organisms.
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Gertie »

Psy
Gertie wrote: ↑September 7th, 2021, 1:25 am
Psy
1) when the brain of a whale is compared with that of a human, what can explain that a human is 'more intelligent' than a whale?
Depends on your criteria I suppose. But trying to assess what whale-intelligence might be like would be tricky.
Yes, you may be right. Perhaps whales have evolved a higher state of intelligence that the human does not know anything about. For example, wouldn't you wonder what an Orca would do with brain technology that presumably can process much more information faster than a human brain can, in a part that in a human brain is correlated with conscious experience, reasoning and thinking?

When as measure for intelligence is taken the ability to excel in science and philosophy. Can it be made evident with knowledge of the human brain that whales are incapable?

As it appears, it isn't possible to answer that question, and it is certainly not justified as of 2021 to hide behind the argument that brain science is in its infancy.

The ability to excel in science and philosophy, i.e. 'human conscious experience', seems to profoundly differ from 'whale experience'. If - in comparison with a whale brain - it cannot easily be shown as of today why a human brain would 'produce' that capacity, then it is questionable that the brain is the origin of that capacity.
Gertie wrote: ↑September 7th, 2021, 1:25 am

2) what theory could explain human intelligence when the 'origin' is not the brain?

A theory which suggests that conscious experience is fundamental, rather than an emergent property of material processes (of brains).
Then, why is a whale not capable of science and philosophy on a level comparable as that of humans? Why did whales not invent advanced technologies in the many millions of years that they have lived before humans, with their 'advanced brain technology' that is similar to today's human brain technology linked to conscious experience, reasoning and thinking?
Humans and whales have different evolutionary adaptive histories. Evolution doesn't have goals like intelligence or technological abilities, it's just adaptations which stick in response to local conditions. That's why we have gazillions of different species with different types of bodies and brains. Humans created the notion of ''intelligence'' based on what it means to humans, what our particular evolutionary history has bequeathed us. What it takes for whales to evolutionarily flourish in the sea (which provides different challenges/evolutionary pressures) isn't going to be the same. I don't know what occupies their big brains, but eg creating electrical technological devices underwater with their flippers isn't likely it!
Gertie wrote: ↑September 7th, 2021, 1:25 am

3) is there an indication that the quality 'human being' as origin for its intelligence resides outside the scope of physiology? (ie that 'human being' as a 'kind' is somehow developed and maintained outside the scope of physiology)

Neural correlation makes that look unlikely. Whatever the 'origin' of conscious experience (which intelligence is an aspect of), we know brain states correlate with mental states, so there is a relationship there. This indicates a human brain 'manifests' conscious experience differently to a whale brain because of the brain differences - same with you and me but the differences between us are smaller. It also indicates some sort of relationship between specific material processes (brain states) and experiential states. So it looks unlikely there are independant fully formed 'human being kinds' like souls existing independantly of brains, even if conscious experience is somehow fundamental. It's possible, but that's not the way it looks like it works, some kind of mind-body relationship exists.
The suggestion was more in favor of a sort of 'master mind' of the human kind (not individual ghosts) but perhaps it could also be much more complex than that, with diverse kinds standing in relation (e.g. an 'animal mind kind' as well).

With regard brain states being an indication that the human brain 'manifests' consciousness by itself.
A ''kind'' is an abstract description, a type of category we create of things which exist, not a thing which itself exists. If you're talking about 'kinds' or 'forms' as something which actually exist, I think you'd need to develop a hypothesis as to what they exist as, and how that could be, to see how it stands up against other hypotheses.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Sy Borg »

Gertie wrote: September 9th, 2021, 3:59 amEvolution doesn't have goals like intelligence or technological abilities, it's just adaptations which stick in response to local conditions.
Yes, but when conditions are stable, complexification is inevitable. Hence, the biosphere (and geosphere, for that matter) is more complex than in past eons of the Earth.

The biosphere has no more need to strive to be more intelligent than a baby does; it happens in time anyway.
Gertie
Posts: 2181
Joined: January 7th, 2015, 7:09 am

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Gertie »

Sy Borg wrote: September 10th, 2021, 5:11 am
Gertie wrote: September 9th, 2021, 3:59 amEvolution doesn't have goals like intelligence or technological abilities, it's just adaptations which stick in response to local conditions.
Yes, but when conditions are stable, complexification is inevitable. Hence, the biosphere (and geosphere, for that matter) is more complex than in past eons of the Earth.

The biosphere has no more need to strive to be more intelligent than a baby does; it happens in time anyway.
I'd have thought it's the other way round, that when things are stable fewer mutations are likely to be useful? And that environmental change and competition are more likely to result in useful mutations like intelligence catching on?

I've not studied it tho, and there is always some change. And my thinking wouldn't account for big brainy whales, who are basically so big, and their food supply so accessible, they shouldn't have much to worry about. (Till people started predating them anyway). The advent of land mammals was a big evolutionary jump which enabled critters to hunt at night while their cold blooded competitors had to sleep cos it's cold. The advent of social land mammals who care and cooperate brought many advantages too and required additional social brain development. Human social mammals' evolutionary niche is intelligence, which effectively means we can adapt the environment to us.

It must be a very different story for whales.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Sy Borg »

Gertie wrote: September 10th, 2021, 6:50 am
Sy Borg wrote: September 10th, 2021, 5:11 am
Gertie wrote: September 9th, 2021, 3:59 amEvolution doesn't have goals like intelligence or technological abilities, it's just adaptations which stick in response to local conditions.
Yes, but when conditions are stable, complexification is inevitable. Hence, the biosphere (and geosphere, for that matter) is more complex than in past eons of the Earth.

The biosphere has no more need to strive to be more intelligent than a baby does; it happens in time anyway.
I'd have thought it's the other way round, that when things are stable fewer mutations are likely to be useful? And that environmental change and competition are more likely to result in useful mutations like intelligence catching on?
It's true that competition drives change. But would humans have been able to achieve what they have done without creating stable spaces that are safe from competitor or predator species? Further, human advancement has occurred during the most stable climatic conditions in the Earth's history.

So it seems that both turmoil and stability can drive complexification, which I suppose means that complexification is inevitable until everything resets somewhat after cataclysmic events (like the one humans are creating at present). Yet, complexity is retained in the DNA of survivors - the game has not yet fully reset, rather, chance has accelerated after decimation.
Gertie wrote: September 10th, 2021, 6:50 amI've not studied it tho, and there is always some change. And my thinking wouldn't account for big brainy whales, who are basically so big, and their food supply so accessible, they shouldn't have much to worry about. (Till people started predating them anyway). The advent of land mammals was a big evolutionary jump which enabled critters to hunt at night while their cold blooded competitors had to sleep cos it's cold. The advent of social land mammals who care and cooperate brought many advantages too and required additional social brain development. Human social mammals' evolutionary niche is intelligence, which effectively means we can adapt the environment to us.

It must be a very different story for whales.
Cetaceans, probably operate somewhat like early nomadic humans, in that they adapt to environment rather than shape it. The ancestors of whales - which were kind of like hoofed mammalian crocodiles, eg. ambulocetus. They were apparently ambush hunters around shorelines like crocodiles. Like cetaceans, human ancestors had settled into a niche lifestyle (arboreal) and were then driven out into the open.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: September 10th, 2021, 5:11 am When conditions are stable, complexification is inevitable. Hence, the biosphere (and geosphere, for that matter) is more complex than in past eons of the Earth.
As more than half of the species that existed when I was born are now extinct - gone forever - I suspect that the biosphere is simplifying even as you read these words.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: September 10th, 2021, 12:18 pm
Sy Borg wrote: September 10th, 2021, 5:11 am When conditions are stable, complexification is inevitable. Hence, the biosphere (and geosphere, for that matter) is more complex than in past eons of the Earth.
As more than half of the species that existed when I was born are now extinct - gone forever - I suspect that the biosphere is simplifying even as you read these words.
As stated, it always simplifies during extinction events. When looking at where evolution is going, one does not think in decades or centuries. That's akin to judging a person based on just seconds of observation. Compare today's biosphere to its state one billion years ago.

Also, the complexification is more of a local rather than homogeneous or uniform process. Think of the complexification of the solar system. It started chaotically, full of dust and radiation. Dust clumped and ever larger entities emerges, the largest attracting even more via gravity. Today there much relative simplicity around the planets but the complexification within the planets far exceeds the relatively chaotic, more homogeneous periods. That's what happening to Earth, with cities being massive areas of extreme complexity that are surrounded by the "space" left after being consumed.
User avatar
psyreporter
Posts: 1022
Joined: August 15th, 2019, 7:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Whale brain vs human brain - what defines the origin of 'human intelligence'?

Post by psyreporter »

Gertie wrote: September 9th, 2021, 3:59 am Humans and whales have different evolutionary adaptive histories. Evolution doesn't have goals like intelligence or technological abilities, it's just adaptations which stick in response to local conditions. That's why we have gazillions of different species with different types of bodies and brains. Humans created the notion of ''intelligence'' based on what it means to humans, what our particular evolutionary history has bequeathed us. What it takes for whales to evolutionarily flourish in the sea (which provides different challenges/evolutionary pressures) isn't going to be the same. I don't know what occupies their big brains, but eg creating electrical technological devices underwater with their flippers isn't likely it!
A clue may be that never in history an Orca has attacked a human. Not even in folklore and old tales!

Since Orca's hunt for seals, it is remarkable that they never made a mistake just once. Not even in old stories.

Why?

There are reports that Orca's have saved people from drowning and from sharks at open sea. In old stories by sailors and more recent. The description of the survivors also shows something remarkable about their experience. They describe a special connection, as if 'communication took place' between the human and the Orca.

Orcas protected humans from sharks and saved drowning people at open sea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ZkkHesyjg

Perhaps Orcas see humans quite differently than what humans of today can imagine to be possible.
Gertie wrote: September 9th, 2021, 3:59 am A ''kind'' is an abstract description, a type of category we create of things which exist, not a thing which itself exists. If you're talking about 'kinds' or 'forms' as something which actually exist, I think you'd need to develop a hypothesis as to what they exist as, and how that could be, to see how it stands up against other hypotheses.
A recent study showed that all particles in the Universe are 'entangled by kind'. That would imply that kind is of substance beyond the scope of a mental abstraction.

When particles are entangled by kind, it implies that non-locality is applicable to the fundamental nature of reality.

(2020) Is nonlocality inherent in all identical particles in the universe?
The photon emitted by the monitor screen and the photon from the distant galaxy at the depths of the universe seem to be entangled only by their identical nature. This is a great mystery that science will soon confront.
https://phys.org/news/2020-03-nonlocali ... verse.html
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021