Gertie wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 8:25 pm
Psy
1) when the brain of a whale is compared with that of a human, what can explain that a human is 'more intelligent' than a whale?
Depends on your criteria I suppose. But trying to assess what whale-intelligence might be like would be tricky.
Yes, you may be right. Perhaps whales have evolved a higher state of intelligence that the human does not know anything about. For example, wouldn't you wonder what an Orca would do with brain technology that presumably can process much more information faster than a human brain can, in a part that in a human brain is correlated with conscious experience, reasoning and thinking?
When as measure for intelligence is taken the ability to excel in science and philosophy. Can it be made evident with knowledge of the human brain that whales are incapable?
As it appears, it isn't possible to answer that question, and it is certainly not justified as of 2021 to hide behind the argument that brain science is in its infancy.
The ability to excel in science and philosophy, i.e. 'human conscious experience', seems to profoundly differ from 'whale experience'. If - in comparison with a whale brain - it cannot easily be shown as of today why a human brain would 'produce' that capacity, then it is questionable that the brain is the origin of that capacity.
Gertie wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 8:25 pm
2) what theory could explain human intelligence when the 'origin' is not the brain?
A theory which suggests that conscious experience is fundamental, rather than an emergent property of material processes (of brains).
Then, why is a whale not capable of science and philosophy on a level comparable as that of humans? Why did whales not invent advanced technologies in the many millions of years that they have lived before humans, with their 'advanced brain technology' that is similar to today's human brain technology linked to conscious experience, reasoning and thinking?
Gertie wrote: ↑September 6th, 2021, 8:25 pm
3) is there an indication that the quality 'human being' as origin for its intelligence resides outside the scope of physiology? (ie that 'human being' as a 'kind' is somehow developed and maintained outside the scope of physiology)
Neural correlation makes that look unlikely. Whatever the 'origin' of conscious experience (which intelligence is an aspect of), we know brain states correlate with mental states, so there is a relationship there. This indicates a human brain 'manifests' conscious experience differently to a whale brain because of the brain differences - same with you and me but the differences between us are smaller. It also indicates some sort of relationship between specific material processes (brain states) and experiential states. So it looks unlikely there are independant fully formed 'human being kinds' like souls existing independantly of brains, even if conscious experience is somehow fundamental. It's possible, but that's not the way it looks like it works, some kind of mind-body relationship exists.
The suggestion was more in favor of a sort of 'master mind' of the human kind (not individual ghosts) but perhaps it could also be much more complex than that, with diverse kinds standing in relation (e.g. an 'animal mind kind' as well).
With regard brain states being an indication that the human brain 'manifests' consciousness by itself.
What about people with 5-10% brain tissue that live a normal life, and sometimes even have a high IQ and manage to achieve an academic degree?
"Any theory of consciousness has to be able to explain why a person like that, who's missing 90 percent of his neurons, still exhibits normal behaviour," Axel Cleeremans, a professor philosophy of cognitive science from the Université Libre de Bruxelles in Belgium"
If the brain is like a trumpet (music instrument), hitting dents into the trumpet does not prove that the music 'originates' from the trumpet. An experienced musician could learn to bypass the dents and play pure music despite the anomalies in the trumpet.
The case of people who manage to live a normal and healthy life with a tiny fraction of a brain certainly provides a strong clue that the 'brain state' theory of the human mind is invalid.
For a visual idea of what it means when a human manages to find a wife, start a family with children and hold a job up until 45 years of age when it was discovered in a random hospital check that he has merely 10% brain tissue:
tiny bit of a brain:
100%: ####################
10%: ##
--
With regard whale intelligence research.
What is the reason that a serious attempt to decode whale language was never initiated until 2021? Whale language may be more complex than human language.
It seems to need philosophy:
(2021)
Groundbreaking effort launched to decode whale language
If humans were ever to decode the language of whales, or even determine if whales possessed something we might truly call language, we’d need to pair their clicks with the context, which would entail a challenging inter-specie philosophical endeavor.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... -of-whales
The website
https://whalescientists.com/ was founded in 2016.
(2021)
What do we know about intelligence in whales and dolphins?
https://whalescientists.com/intelligenc ... -dolphins/
It seems as if the human just started with considering whale intelligence.