Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

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Empiricist-Bruno
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Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Some people don't get sick with COVID-19. So apparently, COVID-19 is not felt as a disease for everyone who is affected by the virus. If something isn't felt as a disease, can it still be an illness? I don't think so.

With COVID-19, you may or may not be sick. If the virus causes a disease in some people but not in others, it may be because some people have susceptibilities needed to cause a disease.

Are people who don't get the disease (while hosting the virus) more healthy than others and is not having susceptibilities to COVID-19 imply that COVID-19 is actually not a disease causing virus but rather a harmless one that attacks inadequate immune systems?

If the issue revealed by this pandemic is that some people have inadequate immune systems, could it be possible to shift the responsibility for the disease away from the virus and onto the problematic immune system of some people?

The purpose of this question is to find out whether we can play a "blame the victim" game with COVID-19. Don't blame me for passing it on to you when there's something inadequate with your system? So why should I self-isolate if I test positive with the disease since I believe to bear no responsibility for how your affected body will handle it?

I feel that people are busy getting the unethical vaccine (tested on animals) to get rid of a potential personal deficiency so that they can then play the "blame the victim" themselves, and attack unvaccinated people as they attack groups of people who haven't had the unethical vaccine and who oppose it.

I feel that this is narrow minded, as bigots are. If, when dealing with this issue, it isn't required to address the origin of the virus then you aren't addressing the root problem of animal abuse. And perhaps instead you are inclined to promoting an unethical solution that allows you to create a dominant supremacist "click" of vaccine passport users who receive benefits not open to everyone?
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LuckyR
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by LuckyR »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: September 13th, 2021, 12:52 pm Some people don't get sick with COVID-19. So apparently, COVID-19 is not felt as a disease for everyone who is affected by the virus. If something isn't felt as a disease, can it still be an illness? I don't think so.

With COVID-19, you may or may not be sick. If the virus causes a disease in some people but not in others, it may be because some people have susceptibilities needed to cause a disease.

Are people who don't get the disease (while hosting the virus) more healthy than others and is not having susceptibilities to COVID-19 imply that COVID-19 is actually not a disease causing virus but rather a harmless one that attacks inadequate immune systems?

If the issue revealed by this pandemic is that some people have inadequate immune systems, could it be possible to shift the responsibility for the disease away from the virus and onto the problematic immune system of some people?

The purpose of this question is to find out whether we can play a "blame the victim" game with COVID-19. Don't blame me for passing it on to you when there's something inadequate with your system? So why should I self-isolate if I test positive with the disease since I believe to bear no responsibility for how your affected body will handle it?

I feel that people are busy getting the unethical vaccine (tested on animals) to get rid of a potential personal deficiency so that they can then play the "blame the victim" themselves, and attack unvaccinated people as they attack groups of people who haven't had the unethical vaccine and who oppose it.

I feel that this is narrow minded, as bigots are. If, when dealing with this issue, it isn't required to address the origin of the virus then you aren't addressing the root problem of animal abuse. And perhaps instead you are inclined to promoting an unethical solution that allows you to create a dominant supremacist "click" of vaccine passport users who receive benefits not open to everyone?
Several things. First animal testing is immoral (in your eyes and that of others) but is not unethical. Secondly, while you are naturally free to voice your opposition to vaccines and their use, I wouldn't be throwing around terminology like narrow minded and bigots if I were you. Lastly, I don't disagree that governmental requirements for vaccine proof to access certain priveleges has some legal (and thus practical) problems, most of what I have heard and read about in this area is by private institutions, thus they are fully ethical, within that context.
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by Steve3007 »

If you think the vaccine is unethical for whatever reason, don't take it. I'm not in favour of people being forced to take it, but of course there's inevitably a debate to be had as to what exactly constitutes "force". It would be unreasonable to literally only define it as physically holding someone down and injecting them. But, as Lucky pointed out, if a private organization doesn't want you on their turf unless you've taken the vaccine I see nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by Sculptor1 »

No matter how much people bleat and moan the fact is that NO ONE has been forced to take the vaccine, and no one ever shall.
If you don't want to take it on grounds of "freeddom" then you do not have to.
But do not expect to gain entry to places that have decided to place restrictions. Do not expect to infringe the freedoms of others who would rather not admit people like yourself
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by RJG »

Steve3007 wrote:If you think the vaccine is unethical for whatever reason, don't take it. I'm not in favour of people being forced to take it, but of course there's inevitably a debate to be had as to what exactly constitutes "force". It would be unreasonable to literally only define it as physically holding someone down and injecting them. But, as Lucky pointed out, if a private organization doesn't want you on their turf unless you've taken the vaccine I see nothing wrong with that.
I fully agree with all that you say here.

I further think that trying to force people to take vaccinations is an uphill battle. We can get much more bang for our buck; more results for our efforts (and stop this virus!) by simply encouraging all healthy/healthy vaccinated people to unmask and resume full socialization (i.e. safely implement herd immunity).
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by Sculptor1 »

RJG wrote: September 14th, 2021, 7:43 am
Steve3007 wrote:If you think the vaccine is unethical for whatever reason, don't take it. I'm not in favour of people being forced to take it, but of course there's inevitably a debate to be had as to what exactly constitutes "force". It would be unreasonable to literally only define it as physically holding someone down and injecting them. But, as Lucky pointed out, if a private organization doesn't want you on their turf unless you've taken the vaccine I see nothing wrong with that.
I fully agree with all that you say here.

I further think that trying to force people to take vaccinations is an uphill battle. We can get much more bang for our buck; more results for our efforts (and stop this virus!) by simply encouraging all healthy/healthy vaccinated people to unmask and resume full socialization (i.e. safely implement herd immunity).
This might be a good policy when most people are vaccinated but it would have been disastrous for the vast majority of the time you have been arguing for it for the simply reason that would you have had your way at any time in the last year, all hospitals would have exceeded capacity as we found when places were reluctant to lockdown.
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by AverageBozo »

RJG wrote: September 14th, 2021, 7:43 am
Steve3007 wrote:If you think the vaccine is unethical for whatever reason, don't take it. I'm not in favour of people being forced to take it, but of course there's inevitably a debate to be had as to what exactly constitutes "force". It would be unreasonable to literally only define it as physically holding someone down and injecting them. But, as Lucky pointed out, if a private organization doesn't want you on their turf unless you've taken the vaccine I see nothing wrong with that.
I fully agree with all that you say here.

I further think that trying to force people to take vaccinations is an uphill battle. We can get much more bang for our buck; more results for our efforts (and stop this virus!) by simply encouraging all healthy/healthy vaccinated people to unmask and resume full socialization (i.e. safely implement herd immunity).
RJG

I agree with you about the science of the mosquito scenario, however I still find a pair of gaps I hope you can fill in. One of the two follows:

If healthy/healthy vaccinated people take on the burden of Covid exposure, we will never reach an 80% level of population immunity. If only 70% or so are at least partially immune, and an unknown number are immunologically resistant, how will we ever attain herd immunity?
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 14th, 2021, 6:16 am No matter how much people bleat and moan the fact is that NO ONE has been forced to take the vaccine, and no one ever shall.
If you don't want to take it on grounds of "freeddom" then you do not have to.
But do not expect to gain entry to places that have decided to place restrictions. Do not expect to infringe the freedoms of others who would rather not admit people like yourself
It is obvious to me, a person who cares for animals, that you are making a false statement when you say that no one has been forced to take the vaccine. I only wish you were correct. It's great to hear you take a stand that no one shall ever [be forced to take the vaccine]. You are a vegan in the making :D .
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by AverageBozo »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: September 14th, 2021, 1:56 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 14th, 2021, 6:16 am No matter how much people bleat and moan the fact is that NO ONE has been forced to take the vaccine, and no one ever shall.
If you don't want to take it on grounds of "freeddom" then you do not have to.
But do not expect to gain entry to places that have decided to place restrictions. Do not expect to infringe the freedoms of others who would rather not admit people like yourself
It is obvious to me, a person who cares for animals, that you are making a false statement when you say that no one has been forced to take the vaccine. I only wish you were correct. It's great to hear you take a stand that no one shall ever [be forced to take the vaccine]. You are a vegan in the making :D .
No person has ever been forced to get vaccinated.
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: September 14th, 2021, 1:56 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 14th, 2021, 6:16 am No matter how much people bleat and moan the fact is that NO ONE has been forced to take the vaccine, and no one ever shall.
If you don't want to take it on grounds of "freeddom" then you do not have to.
But do not expect to gain entry to places that have decided to place restrictions. Do not expect to infringe the freedoms of others who would rather not admit people like yourself
It is obvious to me, a person who cares for animals, that you are making a false statement when you say that no one has been forced to take the vaccine. I only wish you were correct. It's great to hear you take a stand that no one shall ever [be forced to take the vaccine]. You are a vegan in the making :D .
No one has ever been forced to take the vaccine. If you want to persist with this fantasy then you will have to offer some evidence.
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by AverageBozo »

Sculptor1 wrote: September 14th, 2021, 3:33 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: September 14th, 2021, 1:56 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: September 14th, 2021, 6:16 am No matter how much people bleat and moan the fact is that NO ONE has been forced to take the vaccine, and no one ever shall.
If you don't want to take it on grounds of "freeddom" then you do not have to.
But do not expect to gain entry to places that have decided to place restrictions. Do not expect to infringe the freedoms of others who would rather not admit people like yourself
It is obvious to me, a person who cares for animals, that you are making a false statement when you say that no one has been forced to take the vaccine. I only wish you were correct. It's great to hear you take a stand that no one shall ever [be forced to take the vaccine]. You are a vegan in the making :D .
No one has ever been forced to take the vaccine. If you want to persist with this fantasy then you will have to offer some evidence.
Ha-ha-ha. I think Empiricist was trying to say that “someone” who is an animal in a vaccine trial has been forced to take the vaccine.
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by RJG »

AverageBozo wrote:I agree with you about the science of the mosquito scenario, however I still find a pair of gaps I hope you can fill in. One of the two follows:

If healthy/healthy vaccinated people take on the burden of Covid exposure, we will never reach an 80% level of population immunity. If only 70% or so are at least partially immune, and an unknown number are immunologically resistant, how will we ever attain herd immunity?
I think you are right. Because we have fearfully/foolishly prevented herd immunity, I suspect that we are already past the "point-of-no-return"; already past the point of possibly achieving the herd immunity 'threshold' value. (i.e., our potential army of healthy/immune people is now too small). I hope I'm wrong.

But in any case, even if we can no longer eradicate this virus (reach the threshold value), we can still significantly reduce the number of deaths and serious illness caused by this virus.

Remember, there is a difference between herd immunity 'protection' and the herd immunity 'threshold' value.

1. The 'threshold' value is the point (saturation percentage of immune people to the given population) where we theoretically stop and eradicate the virus (it is mathematically determined by the contagious rate of the virus).

2. Herd immunity 'protection' can be gained by even 1 immune person within a local environment (or herd), which means that even 1% of immune people (within a herd) can provide protection. Of course, the more immune people within the herd, the more protection, and the safer, and the less prevalence of the virus within that local environment.

So, just because we can no longer reach the herd immunity 'threshold' value, does not mean that we should give up on 'protecting' people and making this virus as "mild" as possible. The longer we wait to implement herd immunity (via unmasking and socializing healthy/immune people), the worse (or un-mild) this virus will become, and the more dead people we will have.
AverageBozo
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by AverageBozo »

RJG wrote: September 15th, 2021, 9:39 am
AverageBozo wrote:I agree with you about the science of the mosquito scenario, however I still find a pair of gaps I hope you can fill in. One of the two follows:

If healthy/healthy vaccinated people take on the burden of Covid exposure, we will never reach an 80% level of population immunity. If only 70% or so are at least partially immune, and an unknown number are immunologically resistant, how will we ever attain herd immunity?
I think you are right. Because we have fearfully/foolishly prevented herd immunity, I suspect that we are already past the "point-of-no-return"; already past the point of possibly achieving the herd immunity 'threshold' value. (i.e., our potential army of healthy/immune people is now too small). I hope I'm wrong.

But in any case, even if we can no longer eradicate this virus (reach the threshold value), we can still significantly reduce the number of deaths and serious illness caused by this virus.

Remember, there is a difference between herd immunity 'protection' and the herd immunity 'threshold' value.

1. The 'threshold' value is the point (saturation percentage of immune people to the given population) where we theoretically stop and eradicate the virus (it is mathematically determined by the contagious rate of the virus).

2. Herd immunity 'protection' can be gained by even 1 immune person within a local environment (or herd), which means that even 1% of immune people (within a herd) can provide protection. Of course, the more immune people within the herd, the more protection, and the safer, and the less prevalence of the virus within that local environment.

So, just because we can no longer reach the herd immunity 'threshold' value, does not mean that we should give up on 'protecting' people and making this virus as "mild" as possible. The longer we wait to implement herd immunity (via unmasking and socializing healthy/immune people), the worse (or un-mild) this virus will become, and the more dead people we will have.
I see. Thanks.
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Re: Are COVID-19 vax passports the solution or another problem?

Post by LuckyR »

Eradication is off the table. Covid is here to stay. It has been found in deer so there is a non-human resevoir. It isn't about virus avoidance, it is about immune system improvement so that folks get Covid but it is more like a cold or the flu. Remember, if original Covid 19 was as lethal as a cold, we wouldn't even be talking about it right now.
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