Eugenics on Nature

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Eugenics on Nature

Post by Sculptor1 »

psyreporter wrote: January 2nd, 2022, 12:32 am
Sculptor1 wrote: January 1st, 2022, 4:28 pm I asked you to cite the accusation you made of me. Not summarise your argument.

You said this: 'ideologically driven rant that is based on a notion of sacredness and not practicality'.
Where did I say that?
A few posts back:
Sculptor1 wrote: September 20th, 2021, 9:26 amAs it is we live in a complete artifical world as it is, and we need all the tools we can get to help us keep things going.
If you have any specific objections to the work of genetic engineering I'd be happy to discuss that.

However since GE is not significantly different from the selective breeding that we have been doing for the last 10000 years then I cannot support your idealogical rant against it, as it seem to be based on a notion of sacredness and not practicality.
Fair enough. I was surprised that I had spoken so freely on this Forum. I contribute to a couple other Fora where such langauge is more common place. I must have forgotten which page I was on at the time.
Nonetheless Genetic Engineering has provided us with all our domesticated species from pet mice to wheat, tomatoes and dogs. And though the term genetic engineering is now more assocaited with GM we have been selective breeding to great benefits for 20,000 (to include canines) years. Such domestic selection as Darwin phrased it is not without problems but the benefits have been great, and the ever present pressure of natural selection hs continued to stiffle any major horrors.
So there are specific areas where criticism is valid, but it would be hopless to argue on a more generatl level against GE.
For example. Whilst dog breeding has been very successful in that domestic dogs enjoy more than double the lifespan of their progenitor the wolf, there are careless breeders who continue to ignore significant objections of inheritable weaknesses.
Dog s provide wonderful companionship. But are also able to detect cancers, COVID, drugs. They are guides for the blind and deaf, and companion dogs provide comfort to the sick and dying, as well as special alerts for people in danger of fits; friends for severly autistic children.
User avatar
psyreporter
Posts: 1022
Joined: August 15th, 2019, 7:42 pm
Contact:

Re: Eugenics on Nature

Post by psyreporter »

Selective breeding or pollination in plants can be seen as a form of eugenics however that does not mean that it can be generalized with GE.

With eugenics, one is moving 'towards an ultimate state' as perceived from an external viewer (the human). That may be opposite of what is considered healthy in nature that seeks diversity for resilience and strength.
Impenitent wrote:blond hair and blue eyes for everyone

utopia

-Imp

With selective breeding, one works with real animals and plants - meaningful beings with a purpose - and a population of millions of individuals. The potential for shaping evolution in that way is limited and the individual animals and plants may be able to overcome problems.

With GE, artifificial intelligence based automation, synthethic biology and in specific exponential growth, changes for an intended result can be applied on a massive scale, directly affecting millions of animals and plants at once.

The situation is quite different from selective breeding and the idea of the field synthetic biology is that the result of the whole endeavour will be that science will 'master life' and can create and control evolution of species in real time, as an 'engineering approach'.

(April 6th, 2019) Synthetic Biology in The Economist: Redesigning Life
Reprogramming nature is extremely convoluted, having evolved with no intention or guidance. But if you could synthesize nature, life could be transformed into something more amenable to an engineering approach, with well defined standard parts.
https://www.economist.com/weeklyedition/2019-04-06

economist-synthetic-biology-gmo.jpg

Can life have well defined standard parts for science to master and 'redesign' life?

--

What do you think of my arguments with regard GE based eugenics?

Argument 1: origin of life cannot be factored out

The source of life is unknown as of today. If it is unknown where life came from, it is not possible to claim that what has been observed is limited to what has been observed. The origin of life cannot be factored out because it hasn't been observed.

Overcoming problems is essential for progress in life. When humans would attempt to control genetic evolution from their short-sighted and external perspective, they may hinder a vital core of successful evolution. What may appear as a genetic defect in a given time may be part of a longer term (e.g. 300 year) strategy to achieve evolutionary solutions that are essential for longer term survival.

A basis of respect for nature may be vital for successful evolution.

--

Argument 2: GE for top-down control resides on the essence of inbreeding

Top-down control of genetic evolution through GE could be seen as a sort of incest of which it is known that it causes fatal problems.

One could start with the question: why does inbreeding cause severe issues such as major health problems and infertility? Does this question have an answer (not just the mechanism, but 'why' it is so)?

GE for top-down control of genetic evolution would reside on the essence of inbreeding so despite that it can be said that science (humans) will attempt to outrun any problems, at the core the practice may be set to cause fatal problems.

--

Argument 3: GE for Eugenics promotes weakness on the long term

From my perspective, using GE to remove 'unwanted genes' and diseases from the human race logically promotes weakness due to the principle that overcoming problems results in strength.

The reason is the essentiality of resilience, the ability to overcome unforeseeable problems, not just the ones that can be predicted.

Overcoming problems is essential for progress in life. Some perceived defects may be part of a 300 year evolutionary strategy that is essential to acquire solutions for longer term survival. The fight to overcome the defects or diseases makes humanity stronger in the future. Filtering out genes (eugenics) would be like fleeing instead of overcoming problems and thus logically results in increased weakness over time.

An easy life or offspring with genes linked to prosperity (financial, career, intelligence etc) may not be what is good for longer term human evolution.

It may be essential to value what it takes to perform like Stephen Hawking in life. Despite a heradic genetic disease, he has contributed to human existence in ways that few others may have could.

In the case of Stephen Hawking can be seen that things may turn out differently than expected and for resilience to be served, a basis of respect should exist to allow people like Stephen Hawking to perform in life.

The struggle with a disease can result in solutions that enable humanity to survive on the long term. Not giving up could be essential and should be valued and rewarded socially to be effective.

It may be best to serve life instead of trying to stand above it.

Some hints:

Down syndrome: occurs 1 in 700 births, genome called "Super Genome".

(2018) The Down syndrome 'super genome'
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 090148.htm

Huntington's disease: 80 percent less cancer than the general population.

(2018) Huntington's disease provides new cancer weapon
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 084458.htm

(2007) Biologists Link Huntington's Disease To Health Benefits In Young
A new hypothesis has been proposed to explain prevalence of the disease by suggesting that people with Huntington's disease are healthier in childbearing years and have more children than general population. Huntington's strengthens the immune system during most fertile years allowing them to produce more offspring.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 130029.htm

At question could be: would it be possible that the presumed (genetic) diseases/disorders serve a purpose? Perhaps in a time-span that is difficult to comprehend from the limited individual human's perspective?

It is logically good to intend to prevent disease. Perhaps there are good use-cases for eugenics when certain fundamental questions are addressed and kept in awareness. As it appears however, the idea that the human can 'master' life itself is based on a dogmatic belief in uniformitarianism (the idea that facts are valid without philosophy), which could result in disastrous flaws in human evolution.

An attempt to stand above life as being life logically results in a figurative stone that sinks in the ocean of time.
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
Raymond
Posts: 317
Joined: January 23rd, 2022, 6:47 pm

Re: Eugenics on Nature

Post by Raymond »

What a great question! I mean not the questions per se but the whole of writing leading to them. My sincere compliments! Both eugenics and atheism and the removal of moral from science very well explored. I'll be back!
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021