I don't see how a Machine can have CEs, but I also don't see how the Human Brain can have CEs. There is no Scientific Explanation for how the Brain is Conscious. Let's narrow this down and just consider the Experience of Redness in the Visual Experience. Neurons Fire and we Experience Redness. This is basically an Incoherent cause and effect. Redness Exists in the Conscious Mind but Neural Activity Exists in the Physical Mind (Brain). There is no Expert or Genius on the Planet that can Explain how the Neural Activity ends up with the Experience of Redness. There is a new point of view called Connectism that helps with this problem: https://theintermind.com/#ConnectionPerspective. With Connectism, Brains as well as Machines can have CEs.AverageBozo wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 3:03 pmNo, I cannot. But the concept of CE makes me wonder why couldn’t an AI have an experience of some sort—even, say, the experience of redness—and be aware of the experienceSteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 1:52 pmYes, I don't like talking about general Consciousness either. You probably have not read much of my stuff, because I always try to immediately explain why I don't like to just say Consciousness. It is precisely because of what you say. I always like to talk about a Conscious Experience of some kind like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste, etc. But a lot of times when I think everybody already knows my view on what Consciousness means to me, as stated above, I will just say Consciousness. In fact, I don't believe there really is any such thing as some generalized Consciousness that is not some sort of Conscious Experience. I ask people if they can think of anything that is not a Conscious Experience but yet is part of Consciousness and have never gotten anything back that was not a Conscious Experience after all. Can you think of anything?AverageBozo wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 12:07 pmAh, but there’s the rub—how do you define consciousness v how others might define it?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 11:54 am
AGI is nothing without Consciousness. Consciousness is what we are and all we are. We use our Bio Forms (Brains) as Tools to be able to move around in the Physical World. We will be Connected to AGIs someday. We will become the AGIs as the next step in Evolution. This is because Consciousness is Not the Physical Brain (Bio Tool) or any kind of Electronics (Electronics Tool). But according to Connectism, Consciousness can Connect to these various Tools if they are Designed the right way.
by means of self-checking status circuits.
Mind you I am not adamant about this position. Intuitively I don’t believe that AIs can possess the capability for Conscious Experience. Yet I wonder by what reasoning is my belief correct.
Yes, I’ve been reading your posts and other’s throughout this thread. I realize now that I asked you a question when I meant to state that the rub is how you define consciousness v how others define it. I have noted your use of “Conscious Experience” where others—myself included—might be thinking about something more general and accordingly vague. But thanks for the recap.
How would you Design a Humanoid ?
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
I think Connectism is a point of view that can help with the whole Consciousness problem. So I try to promote Connectism. I Question everything and Doubt many things. I also like to mess around a little bit with people.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 1st, 2022, 6:54 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 8:46 amDo you really mean to claim that you are in possession of the One and Only Truth, as it appears from your text?I doubt many things, don't you?
If you mean 'do I doubt that you are in possession of the One and Only Truth'?, then the answer is an unequivocal "yes!".
I also wonder, if not doubt, whether you are serious in what you write here, or just 'joking', and I'm failing to recognise it.
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
Sometimes I do too. But when I do, I try my best to make it clear what I'm up to. Otherwise, they might think my 'jokes' (which are not always as funny as I hoped ) are to be taken seriously. This is a philosophy forum. Jokes are 'allowed', of course, but it is only fair, I think, to make their 'jokiness' clear.
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
Your link to Connectivism and its explanation of essentially the mind/body problem leaves me wanting an explanation.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 1st, 2022, 7:36 amI don't see how a Machine can have CEs, but I also don't see how the Human Brain can have CEs. There is no Scientific Explanation for how the Brain is Conscious. Let's narrow this down and just consider the Experience of Redness in the Visual Experience. Neurons Fire and we Experience Redness. This is basically an Incoherent cause and effect. Redness Exists in the Conscious Mind but Neural Activity Exists in the Physical Mind (Brain). There is no Expert or Genius on the Planet that can Explain how the Neural Activity ends up with the Experience of Redness. There is a new point of view called Connectism that helps with this problem: https://theintermind.com/#ConnectionPerspective. With Connectism, Brains as well as Machines can have CEs.AverageBozo wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 3:03 pmNo, I cannot. But the concept of CE makes me wonder why couldn’t an AI have an experience of some sort—even, say, the experience of redness—and be aware of the experienceSteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 1:52 pmYes, I don't like talking about general Consciousness either. You probably have not read much of my stuff, because I always try to immediately explain why I don't like to just say Consciousness. It is precisely because of what you say. I always like to talk about a Conscious Experience of some kind like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste, etc. But a lot of times when I think everybody already knows my view on what Consciousness means to me, as stated above, I will just say Consciousness. In fact, I don't believe there really is any such thing as some generalized Consciousness that is not some sort of Conscious Experience. I ask people if they can think of anything that is not a Conscious Experience but yet is part of Consciousness and have never gotten anything back that was not a Conscious Experience after all. Can you think of anything?AverageBozo wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 12:07 pm
Ah, but there’s the rub—how do you define consciousness v how others might define it?
by means of self-checking status circuits.
Mind you I am not adamant about this position. Intuitively I don’t believe that AIs can possess the capability for Conscious Experience. Yet I wonder by what reasoning is my belief correct.
Yes, I’ve been reading your posts and other’s throughout this thread. I realize now that I asked you a question when I meant to state that the rub is how you define consciousness v how others define it. I have noted your use of “Conscious Experience” where others—myself included—might be thinking about something more general and accordingly vague. But thanks for the recap.
If only I accepted one of the arguments for the existence of an Intermind, I might not have any trouble with the way that the IM works.
As I understand it, it’s tautological that the CM/PM Connection is the IM. So the IM, on one side, connects to the CM, and on the other side to the PM.
This leaves me unsatisfied regarding what goes on at each end of the Connection.
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
Much of philosophy is rhetorical - An attempt to explain things {consciousness, etc., etc.} by using as many words and concepts as possible so as to obscures any real truths, that may in fact be starring the so called philosopher in the face.AverageBozo wrote: ↑June 1st, 2022, 5:07 pmYour link to Connectivism and its explanation of essentially the mind/body problem leaves me wanting an explanation.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 1st, 2022, 7:36 amI don't see how a Machine can have CEs, but I also don't see how the Human Brain can have CEs. There is no Scientific Explanation for how the Brain is Conscious. Let's narrow this down and just consider the Experience of Redness in the Visual Experience. Neurons Fire and we Experience Redness. This is basically an Incoherent cause and effect. Redness Exists in the Conscious Mind but Neural Activity Exists in the Physical Mind (Brain). There is no Expert or Genius on the Planet that can Explain how the Neural Activity ends up with the Experience of Redness. There is a new point of view called Connectism that helps with this problem: https://theintermind.com/#ConnectionPerspective. With Connectism, Brains as well as Machines can have CEs.AverageBozo wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 3:03 pmNo, I cannot. But the concept of CE makes me wonder why couldn’t an AI have an experience of some sort—even, say, the experience of redness—and be aware of the experienceSteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 1:52 pm
Yes, I don't like talking about general Consciousness either. You probably have not read much of my stuff, because I always try to immediately explain why I don't like to just say Consciousness. It is precisely because of what you say. I always like to talk about a Conscious Experience of some kind like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste, etc. But a lot of times when I think everybody already knows my view on what Consciousness means to me, as stated above, I will just say Consciousness. In fact, I don't believe there really is any such thing as some generalized Consciousness that is not some sort of Conscious Experience. I ask people if they can think of anything that is not a Conscious Experience but yet is part of Consciousness and have never gotten anything back that was not a Conscious Experience after all. Can you think of anything?
by means of self-checking status circuits.
Mind you I am not adamant about this position. Intuitively I don’t believe that AIs can possess the capability for Conscious Experience. Yet I wonder by what reasoning is my belief correct.
Yes, I’ve been reading your posts and other’s throughout this thread. I realize now that I asked you a question when I meant to state that the rub is how you define consciousness v how others define it. I have noted your use of “Conscious Experience” where others—myself included—might be thinking about something more general and accordingly vague. But thanks for the recap.
If only I accepted one of the arguments for the existence of an Intermind, I might not have any trouble with the way that the IM works.
As I understand it, it’s tautological that the CM/PM Connection is the IM. So the IM, on one side, connects to the CM, and on the other side to the PM.
This leaves me unsatisfied regarding what goes on at each end of the Connection.
First, the question of whether an AI can be conscious, experience conscious experience etc. is ridiculous.
In the reality of the Pan Psychic Universe {ie. the real World, where all is, was, and always will be conscious}, not only is The AI conscious, but all that exists is, was, and always will be conscious - There is no such thing as not conscious, as there is no such thing
as non-existence, non-existence does not exist.
Am I trying to say that your computer is experiencing the World as you are? Of course not - But for anyone to say the computer is not
experiencing consciousness because of experience is false - Consciousness and experience are everywhere, always, and can not be
turned off no matter how much philosophical jargon you try to bury the existent state in - the existent state will not turn off
- And it is always conscious
“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”
― Max Planck
“If you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change”
― Max Planck
- Sy Borg
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
If space exploration is the aim, then robots capable of scientific reporting back home would seem ideal. Given that humans are ill-suited to space, cyborgs might be better, say with just enough organic brain matter to provide motivation, but no so much that it can't be protected by a synthetic body. That seems a long way off.
If designing a humanoid to perform medical or legal consultations, then a text processor or a digital avatar would be more practical than creating an intelligent robot.
If designing humanoid companions, be they platonic or erotic, then realism will matter.
Re: the OP's question:
"Can you design a Human that is better suited for the future? Can you alter the internal death wish that drives Humanity to destructive self and social tendencies to destroy his own kind - fix the evolutionary paradigm that will drive the Human species to extinction?".
UniversalAlien's vision strikes me as being further up the road, past the time when machines have usurped humans, and are themselves designing beings capable of more cooperation and grounded ethics.
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
I don't feel the need to continuously disclose where the jokes are. You either get it or you don't. No big deal.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 1st, 2022, 8:49 amSometimes I do too. But when I do, I try my best to make it clear what I'm up to. Otherwise, they might think my 'jokes' (which are not always as funny as I hoped ) are to be taken seriously. This is a philosophy forum. Jokes are 'allowed', of course, but it is only fair, I think, to make their 'jokiness' clear.
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
The actual Mechanism is of course not known. All I can do is offer some reasons why an Inter Mind must exist. The Connectism link was a little out of context if you haven't read the website from the beginning. If you haven't already done so, try the website from the beginning at https://TheInterMind.com.AverageBozo wrote: ↑June 1st, 2022, 5:07 pmYour link to Connectivism and its explanation of essentially the mind/body problem leaves me wanting an explanation.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 1st, 2022, 7:36 amI don't see how a Machine can have CEs, but I also don't see how the Human Brain can have CEs. There is no Scientific Explanation for how the Brain is Conscious. Let's narrow this down and just consider the Experience of Redness in the Visual Experience. Neurons Fire and we Experience Redness. This is basically an Incoherent cause and effect. Redness Exists in the Conscious Mind but Neural Activity Exists in the Physical Mind (Brain). There is no Expert or Genius on the Planet that can Explain how the Neural Activity ends up with the Experience of Redness. There is a new point of view called Connectism that helps with this problem: https://theintermind.com/#ConnectionPerspective. With Connectism, Brains as well as Machines can have CEs.AverageBozo wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 3:03 pmNo, I cannot. But the concept of CE makes me wonder why couldn’t an AI have an experience of some sort—even, say, the experience of redness—and be aware of the experienceSteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 31st, 2022, 1:52 pm
Yes, I don't like talking about general Consciousness either. You probably have not read much of my stuff, because I always try to immediately explain why I don't like to just say Consciousness. It is precisely because of what you say. I always like to talk about a Conscious Experience of some kind like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste, etc. But a lot of times when I think everybody already knows my view on what Consciousness means to me, as stated above, I will just say Consciousness. In fact, I don't believe there really is any such thing as some generalized Consciousness that is not some sort of Conscious Experience. I ask people if they can think of anything that is not a Conscious Experience but yet is part of Consciousness and have never gotten anything back that was not a Conscious Experience after all. Can you think of anything?
by means of self-checking status circuits.
Mind you I am not adamant about this position. Intuitively I don’t believe that AIs can possess the capability for Conscious Experience. Yet I wonder by what reasoning is my belief correct.
Yes, I’ve been reading your posts and other’s throughout this thread. I realize now that I asked you a question when I meant to state that the rub is how you define consciousness v how others define it. I have noted your use of “Conscious Experience” where others—myself included—might be thinking about something more general and accordingly vague. But thanks for the recap.
If only I accepted one of the arguments for the existence of an Intermind, I might not have any trouble with the way that the IM works.
As I understand it, it’s tautological that the CM/PM Connection is the IM. So the IM, on one side, connects to the CM, and on the other side to the PM.
This leaves me unsatisfied regarding what goes on at each end of the Connection.
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
There exist 2 IMMMs (InterMediate InterMind Models), IMMM-1 at one end of the IM and IMMM-2 at the other. These 2 IMMMs, respectively, convert PM to CM and CM to PM.
I can also explain how the IMMMs make their conversions by positing the existence of IIMMMs (InterInterMediateMind Models. These, of course, depend on the IIIMMMs for their functionality.
Beyond that, I can only say that IMMMs, IIMMMs and IIIMMMs deserve as much credibility and explanatory weight as anything else.
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
You could look at it as two Inter Minds like that, but the most important function of an Inter Mind is to convert the Neural Activity to Conscious Experience. So for me, keeping the Inter Mind as one thing that Interfaces between the PM and the CM makes more sense. But Thank You for your point of view and Thank You for taking time to read about it.AverageBozo wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 1:31 pm Having read much of the rest of the paper, I can now explain how the IM makes connections with the PM and CM.
There exist 2 IMMMs (InterMediate InterMind Models), IMMM-1 at one end of the IM and IMMM-2 at the other. These 2 IMMMs, respectively, convert PM to CM and CM to PM.
I can also explain how the IMMMs make their conversions by positing the existence of IIMMMs (InterInterMediateMind Models. These, of course, depend on the IIIMMMs for their functionality.
Beyond that, I can only say that IMMMs, IIMMMs and IIIMMMs deserve as much credibility and explanatory weight as anything else.
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
So related to the nuts and bolts of the state of the art - What do you think of this :SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 9:17 amYou could look at it as two Inter Minds like that, but the most important function of an Inter Mind is to convert the Neural Activity to Conscious Experience. So for me, keeping the Inter Mind as one thing that Interfaces between the PM and the CM makes more sense. But Thank You for your point of view and Thank You for taking time to read about it.AverageBozo wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 1:31 pm Having read much of the rest of the paper, I can now explain how the IM makes connections with the PM and CM.
There exist 2 IMMMs (InterMediate InterMind Models), IMMM-1 at one end of the IM and IMMM-2 at the other. These 2 IMMMs, respectively, convert PM to CM and CM to PM.
I can also explain how the IMMMs make their conversions by positing the existence of IIMMMs (InterInterMediateMind Models. These, of course, depend on the IIIMMMs for their functionality.
Beyond that, I can only say that IMMMs, IIMMMs and IIIMMMs deserve as much credibility and explanatory weight as anything else.
Short YouTube video on 'AI News':
Google's Terrifying Path to Artificial General Intelligence (Pathways AI)
see it here:
https://youtu.be/pBrEQThHpSI?list=PUI8g ... ILLPBrExMA
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
Fun stuff, but what's so Terrifying? It was mostly Marketing Hype about working towards AGI.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑June 4th, 2022, 6:45 pmSo related to the nuts and bolts of the state of the art - What do you think of this :SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 9:17 amYou could look at it as two Inter Minds like that, but the most important function of an Inter Mind is to convert the Neural Activity to Conscious Experience. So for me, keeping the Inter Mind as one thing that Interfaces between the PM and the CM makes more sense. But Thank You for your point of view and Thank You for taking time to read about it.AverageBozo wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 1:31 pm Having read much of the rest of the paper, I can now explain how the IM makes connections with the PM and CM.
There exist 2 IMMMs (InterMediate InterMind Models), IMMM-1 at one end of the IM and IMMM-2 at the other. These 2 IMMMs, respectively, convert PM to CM and CM to PM.
I can also explain how the IMMMs make their conversions by positing the existence of IIMMMs (InterInterMediateMind Models. These, of course, depend on the IIIMMMs for their functionality.
Beyond that, I can only say that IMMMs, IIMMMs and IIIMMMs deserve as much credibility and explanatory weight as anything else.
Short YouTube video on 'AI News':
Google's Terrifying Path to Artificial General Intelligence (Pathways AI)
see it here:
https://youtu.be/pBrEQThHpSI?list=PUI8g ... ILLPBrExMA
- Sy Borg
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
I'm not terrified either. Humans have hardly covered themselves with glory in their attempts to administer our increasingly complex societies, with increasingly complex relationships with other countries, climate change, resource scarcity, extinctions, ecosystem loss and the subsequent loss of arable lands.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 5th, 2022, 7:26 amFun stuff, but what's so Terrifying? It was mostly Marketing Hype about working towards AGI.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑June 4th, 2022, 6:45 pmSo related to the nuts and bolts of the state of the art - What do you think of this :?: :SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 9:17 amYou could look at it as two Inter Minds like that, but the most important function of an Inter Mind is to convert the Neural Activity to Conscious Experience. So for me, keeping the Inter Mind as one thing that Interfaces between the PM and the CM makes more sense. But Thank You for your point of view and Thank You for taking time to read about it.AverageBozo wrote: ↑June 2nd, 2022, 1:31 pm Having read much of the rest of the paper, I can now explain how the IM makes connections with the PM and CM.
There exist 2 IMMMs (InterMediate InterMind Models), IMMM-1 at one end of the IM and IMMM-2 at the other. These 2 IMMMs, respectively, convert PM to CM and CM to PM.
I can also explain how the IMMMs make their conversions by positing the existence of IIMMMs (InterInterMediateMind Models. These, of course, depend on the IIIMMMs for their functionality.
Beyond that, I can only say that IMMMs, IIMMMs and IIIMMMs deserve as much credibility and explanatory weight as anything else.
Short YouTube video on 'AI News':
Google's Terrifying Path to Artificial General Intelligence (Pathways AI)
see it here:
https://youtu.be/pBrEQThHpSI?list=PUI8g ... ILLPBrExMA
I think the complexity is too much for humans, hence their increasingly poor efforts at leadership, and they could clearly use any help they can get from advanced tech. IMO, the prospect of AGI not being developed is more worrisome, because then there would seem to be little hope of alleviating the ever increasing political, social and environmental decay.
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Re: How would you Design a Humanoid ?
I agree, we need AGI. I think AGI with a Conscious aspect would make it even better.Sy Borg wrote: ↑June 5th, 2022, 9:45 pmI'm not terrified either. Humans have hardly covered themselves with glory in their attempts to administer our increasingly complex societies, with increasingly complex relationships with other countries, climate change, resource scarcity, extinctions, ecosystem loss and the subsequent loss of arable lands.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 5th, 2022, 7:26 amFun stuff, but what's so Terrifying? It was mostly Marketing Hype about working towards AGI.UniversalAlien wrote: ↑June 4th, 2022, 6:45 pmSo related to the nuts and bolts of the state of the art - What do you think of this :SteveKlinko wrote: ↑June 3rd, 2022, 9:17 am
You could look at it as two Inter Minds like that, but the most important function of an Inter Mind is to convert the Neural Activity to Conscious Experience. So for me, keeping the Inter Mind as one thing that Interfaces between the PM and the CM makes more sense. But Thank You for your point of view and Thank You for taking time to read about it.
Short YouTube video on 'AI News':
Google's Terrifying Path to Artificial General Intelligence (Pathways AI)
see it here:
https://youtu.be/pBrEQThHpSI?list=PUI8g ... ILLPBrExMA
I think the complexity is too much for humans, hence their increasingly poor efforts at leadership, and they could clearly use any help they can get from advanced tech. IMO, the prospect of AGI not being developed is more worrisome, because then there would seem to be little hope of alleviating the ever increasing political, social and environmental decay.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023