An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Elephant
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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GrayArea wrote: July 18th, 2022, 8:12 am
However, I'm sorry—I still do not understand why time travel cannot happen here. Doesn't quantum superposition and its collapse still happen because time flows? So doesn't that mean that reverting back time after the collapse of the quantum superposition, will revert the collapse of the superposition?
Time passing is not a factor in the collapse of superposition. You seem to think that the thought experiment relies on the passing of time before the superposition becomes one or another specific thing. It does not. It was never promised that the decay of an atom would release a radioactive substance that would trigger the breakage of the vial that contains the toxins to kill the cat in a couple of hours. Time could pass and nothing happened inside the locked box.

The "collapse", which you seem to have not been able to grasp, is the event when an observer finally peaks inside the box to look at the cat. The "collapse of superposition" means that an observer had put a stop to the idea that the cat is both dead and alive. It is only a superposition -- the cat is both dead and alive -- because no one has yet looked inside the box.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Sy Borg wrote: July 18th, 2022, 2:33 am This looks like a question about determinism at quantum scales, whether the fluctuations we interpret as chaotic are, in fact, subject to undetected influences, perhaps at some smaller scale.
It's what, perhaps, Schrodinger wanted us to think -- there are no simultaneous multiple states of a quantum object. There's only the unobserved, or as you say, undetected influences.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Elephant wrote: July 18th, 2022, 11:54 pm
Sy Borg wrote: July 18th, 2022, 2:33 am This looks like a question about determinism at quantum scales, whether the fluctuations we interpret as chaotic are, in fact, subject to undetected influences, perhaps at some smaller scale.
It's what, perhaps, Schrodinger wanted us to think -- there are no simultaneous multiple states of a quantum object. There's only the unobserved, or as you say, undetected influences.
For instance, things can theoretically exist at the Planck scale, which is apparently about ten trillion times smaller than so-called "point particles" like electrons. Yes, maybe electrons and quarks aren't points, but composites? After all, everything looks like a point if you're far enough away from it :)
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Sy Borg wrote: July 19th, 2022, 2:34 am Yes, maybe electrons and quarks aren't points, but composites? After all, everything looks like a point if you're far enough away from it :)
Quarks are the smallest before Planck units. So, quarks are subatomic particles.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Elephant wrote: August 13th, 2022, 4:52 pm
Sy Borg wrote: July 19th, 2022, 2:34 am Yes, maybe electrons and quarks aren't points, but composites? After all, everything looks like a point if you're far enough away from it :)
Quarks are the smallest before Planck units. So, quarks are subatomic particles.
Yes, but what if there's more going on between the Planck scale and quarks than we realise?
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Sy Borg wrote: August 13th, 2022, 7:56 pm Yes, but what if there's more going on between the Planck scale and quarks than we realise?
There's nothing between quarks and planck's. Trust me on this. You know how I know this? Because if there's something intelligible there, then physics would have discovered it by now. But if our speculation is that there's something still unintelligible going on there, then even us are not entitled to this assertion. I guess we're entitled to ask a question. But, that's where it ends.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Elephant wrote: August 13th, 2022, 8:41 pm
Sy Borg wrote: August 13th, 2022, 7:56 pm Yes, but what if there's more going on between the Planck scale and quarks than we realise?
There's nothing between quarks and planck's. Trust me on this. You know how I know this? Because if there's something intelligible there, then physics would have discovered it by now. But if our speculation is that there's something still unintelligible going on there, then even us are not entitled to this assertion. I guess we're entitled to ask a question. But, that's where it ends.
How would we know? Detecting anything at Planck scale would require a hadron collider larger than the solar system, so that realm can only be probed theoretically. At this stage it's posited that anything between the quantum and Planck scales is gunky, as opposed to particulated, but that only is an assumption at this stage.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Sy Borg wrote: August 13th, 2022, 9:09 pm
How would we know? Detecting anything at Planck scale would require a hadron collider larger than the solar system, so that realm can only be probed theoretically. At this stage it's posited that anything between the quantum and Planck scales is gunky, as opposed to particulated, but that only is an assumption at this stage.
Pardon me, but quarks are only detected theoretically. But we now consider quarks to be existent. Second, a unit or object in space, called elements or chemical elements, have always been composite, and the parts that make them up are sub particles. If you're thinking that there's an element, like an atom, that has not been detected by the instruments that we have now, why? Why haven't they been detected? ( we don't need a hadron collider the size of solar system for this because if it's an element, it'd give itself away by the lesser method) But if you're thinking that there are particles that aren't part of an element (space object) and they're floating around in space, then you're thinking of fantasy. Particles can only exist as part of the chemical element. They can't exist independently.

So, to summarize the logic here: If they're an element, they've already been detected. Their sub particles would also be posited. Other than that, nothing exists independently as sub particles.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Not elements, which are entire atoms. Think waaay smaller.

My point, pardon the pun, is that I'm not sure that "point particles" are ontic points or epistemic points. That is, I'm not sure that we have detected the smallest states of matter at this stage. Activity at an even smaller scale may be behind the apparently random fluctuations of subatomic particles.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Strings may be a good candidate and may actually make sense as the minutest of vibrational fields. Maybe the universe self-composed itself!
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Tegularius wrote: August 15th, 2022, 3:01 am Strings may be a good candidate and may actually make sense as the minutest of vibrational fields. Maybe the universe self-composed itself!
Yes, but I understand that LHC results so far are not encouraging for string theory, but it remains on the table, albeit with fewer students choosing to focus on it, preferring QLG.

https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang ... e-physics/
Everyone in the physics community agrees: particle physics is in trouble. Yet, depending on whom you ask, you’re likely to hear that the root of the trouble originates in a few very different places.

- Particle physics is in trouble because there are now so many cracks in the Standard Model that it might well be time to throw out our most cherished assumptions and start over.
- Particle physics is in trouble because theorists have led us astray for generations, and we’ve continued to barrel down the same path.
- Particle physics is in trouble because the Large Hadron Collider has only found the expected Higgs Boson while failing to find anything else new, and still particle physicists want a newer and bigger accelerator.

But the truth of the matter isn’t any of these; these are all convenient but incomplete narratives that deliberately leave out the most important aspects of what’s going on. The truth is that there’s much more to learn beyond the already-explored frontiers, and the value of that knowledge is not knowable until we go out and find it. There’s a tremendous case for not only starting to build the next particle accelerator now, but also to pay very close attention to what the LHC discovers during the next crucial decade.
Personally, I quite like the second option. When I look at the standard model, it's convoluted like, the purported planetary orbits based on geocentrism. Ptolomy's looping planetary paths in a geocentric solar system work, but they are wildly overcomplicated and make the planetary paths seems absurd and incomprehensible. What could make a planet do a loop-de-loop in space? :)

https://i.stack.imgur.com/A4Rd1.jpg

It may be that we are waiting for quantum physics' version of Copernicus or Einstein to fundamentally shift our perspectives.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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I know the topic is months old, but I'm rarely here anymore.
GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:10 pm Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
As Alta correctly points out, the answer is interpretation dependent. Different quantum interpretations give different answers to the question.
Secondly, there's no reason to restrict one self to the cat experiment, which cannot be implemented since there is no way to put a cat into superposition (states that interfere measurably with each other). So the question can be more simply asked: I shoot a photon through a slit (not double slit even), and it is measured at some random spot at the detector.
If I run that exact scenario multiple times (no time travel needed), will the measurement always take place there? The answer again is interpretation dependent. Bohm for instance would say yes. Most would say no I think.
Alan Masterman wrote: July 7th, 2022, 1:37 pm If we perform the same experiment numerous times and get the same result every time, we are on the right track. If we get random or unpredictable responses every time, we have taken a wrong turn somewhere.
If this were so, quantum theory would be falsified. One will get 'random' results every time, with predictable probability. If you get the same results every time, the theory is completely wrong.
value wrote: July 7th, 2022, 10:44 pmOne would first need to establish what causes the wave function collapse.
This has nothing to do with it. There are interpretations that don't have wave function collapse. The ones that do and the ones that don't make the same empirical predictions.
Tegularius wrote: July 8th, 2022, 4:16 pmOnly the cat knows for sure and he or she ain't talkin.
Again, only in something like Bohmian mechanics would the cat know. In most interpretations, it would not.
GrayArea wrote: July 18th, 2022, 8:12 amHowever, I'm sorry—I still do not understand why time travel cannot happen here. Doesn't quantum superposition and its collapse still happen because time flows?
If time is something that flows, then the past and future don't exist, only the present, and there is therefore no past to which one can 'travel'. Time travel thus requires at a minimum a model where events have equal ontological footing, and the flowing time model isn't it.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Alan Masterman wrote: July 7th, 2022, 1:37 pm On the other hand, basic science theory tells us that the essence of experimental science is repeatability. If we perform the same experiment numerous times and get the same result every time, we are on the right track. If we get random or unpredictable responses every time, we have taken a wrong turn somewhere.
value wrote: July 7th, 2022, 10:45 pm Why would that imply a wrong turn? What theory would possibly provide validity for the idea that only that what is repeatable is meaningfully relevant?
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 8th, 2022, 8:43 amYes, I was thinking along similar lines. "If we get random or unpredictable responses every time," perhaps we have discovered a random or unpredictable process? Would that be so bad? If so, why would it be bad?
The question has remained unanswered.

The concept 'meaningfully relevant' compared to the boundaries of what is 'repeatable' might be of interest. A recent discussion with GE Morton indicated that the term 'meaning' is understood strangely when an attempt is made to adhere closely to what is repeatable (empirical).

There is logically more than what science can possibly explain. As an example, that more is currently addressed by the concept quantum non-locality with 'non' being a description of what the human is able to see in it.

There is some evidence that a 'spirit' of nature (Gaia philosophy) cannot be dismissed, while it in the same time cannot be empirically proven.

👨‍🚀 Astronauts report to experience an extreme transcendental experience of 'interconnected euphoria' when they view earth from space. It is called 'Overview effect on Earth'.

(2022) The Overview Institute
There's more to the pale blue dot than we know.
https://overviewinstitute.org/

(2022) The Case for Planetary Awareness
Widely known in the space community as the Overview Effect, it is little known by the general public and poorly understood even by many space advocates. Phrases like "strange dreamlike experience", "reality was like a hallucination", and feeling like they had "come back from the future", occur time and again. Finally, many astronauts have emphasized that space images do not come close to the direct experience, and may even give us a false impression of the real nature of the Earth and space. "It is virtually impossible to describe... You can take people to see [IMAX's] The Dream Is Alive, but spectacular as it is, it's not the same as being there." - Astronaut and Senator Jake Garn.
http://overview-effect.earth/

What could that 'spirit' be? What is reported might concern in-the-moment 'signifying' on behalf of a priori meaning, i.e. morality in effect on a grand scale. Astronauts experience that as interconnected euphoria.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Sy Borg wrote: August 16th, 2022, 10:13 pm It may be that we are waiting for quantum physics' version of Copernicus or Einstein to fundamentally shift our perspectives.
I know that string theory was not fashionable for a long time. However, it now appears to be the main and favored contender in exploring quantum gravity. The other one is loop quantum gravity. String theory is more advanced and inclusive of other forces than LQQ which deals only with gravity. Nothing is certain yet thought one thing is: even if string theory fails to be the be-all and end-all of all theories, major portions of it are certain to be adapted and included into theories yet to be discovered. The fact that ST is proven to be mathematically coherent with a considerable degree of explanatory power especially as regards the possibility of a multiverse, makes it inevitable.

I'm not so certain of what you call cracks in the Standard Model which has been almost perfect in its predictions so far. It was the SM itself which prognosticated that something like the Higgs boson must exist. It seems more likely, at least to me at this time, that the SM needs to be updated, refined and extended, in effect, merging into a "Core Theory" as something much more inclusive. It was never thought of as complete in itself.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Tegularius wrote: August 19th, 2022, 11:28 pm
Sy Borg wrote: August 16th, 2022, 10:13 pm It may be that we are waiting for quantum physics' version of Copernicus or Einstein to fundamentally shift our perspectives.
I know that string theory was not fashionable for a long time. However, it now appears to be the main and favored contender in exploring quantum gravity. The other one is loop quantum gravity. String theory is more advanced and inclusive of other forces than LQQ which deals only with gravity. Nothing is certain yet thought one thing is: even if string theory fails to be the be-all and end-all of all theories, major portions of it are certain to be adapted and included into theories yet to be discovered. The fact that ST is proven to be mathematically coherent with a considerable degree of explanatory power especially as regards the possibility of a multiverse, makes it inevitable.

I'm not so certain of what you call cracks in the Standard Model which has been almost perfect in its predictions so far. It was the SM itself which prognosticated that something like the Higgs boson must exist. It seems more likely, at least to me at this time, that the SM needs to be updated, refined and extended, in effect, merging into a "Core Theory" as something much more inclusive. It was never thought of as complete in itself.
Time will tell, one way or another.

Ptolemy's calculations regarding planetary orbits were largely correct, and Newton's laws are still used today. Yet each system had a relatively shallow conception of what was happening, to be later updated by Einstein.

String theory and LQG are the prime contenders, and I confess disappointment that the LHC failed to find evidence of supersymmetry that would have supported string theory. The Standard Model, despite its many successes, does have serious issues, though. It does not explain gravity, dark matter, dark energy, observed masses of neutrinos or the matter/antimatter symmetry, and the need for many constants.

Intuitively, I agree with physicists who figure that the Standard Model as it stands lacks the elegance, simplicity and clarity that comes with powerful explanations.
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