An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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GrayArea
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An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by GrayArea »

Some or most of you may be familiar with the famous physics thought experiment made by Erwin Schrodinger, called the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

So here is a very simple extension of the experiment. I decided to add another factor that may or may not affect quantum probability, which is time.

It goes like this: After the cat inside the box has either lived or died, one goes back in time (whether time travel is possible or not is not important to what this thought experiment attempts to question.) and re-runs the experiment again.

Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by SteveKlinko »

GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:10 pm Some or most of you may be familiar with the famous physics thought experiment made by Erwin Schrodinger, called the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

So here is a very simple extension of the experiment. I decided to add another factor that may or may not affect quantum probability, which is time.

It goes like this: After the cat inside the box has either lived or died, one goes back in time (whether time travel is possible or not is not important to what this thought experiment attempts to question.) and re-runs the experiment again.

Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
Here are my Interpretations for two of the main Interpretations: Many Worlds Interpretation would say the Probability is not Reset. All the possible outcomes of the Wave Function collapse will happen, one in each of the different Worlds again in the same way for each go back. The purpose of this interpretation is to get rid of the Probability in this way. The Copenhagen Interpretation would say the Probability is Reset. The outcome will be driven by a Probabilistic Phenomenon built into the collapse of the Wave Function for each go back.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by Atla »

GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:10 pm Some or most of you may be familiar with the famous physics thought experiment made by Erwin Schrodinger, called the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

So here is a very simple extension of the experiment. I decided to add another factor that may or may not affect quantum probability, which is time.

It goes like this: After the cat inside the box has either lived or died, one goes back in time (whether time travel is possible or not is not important to what this thought experiment attempts to question.) and re-runs the experiment again.

Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
Yeah that's unknown, can't be tested unfortunately. Depends on our interpretation (on our guess), for example if there is an absolute nonlocal determinism behind QM, then the cat will encounter the same fate every time.

(It's beside the point, but time doesn't seem to exist in that sense in QM by the way. If we have a dead/alive outcome in the present, then we can't go back in time and rerun the experiment, because we already fixed the past. Maybe we can go back and rerun the experiment, if we completely erase the first result from our memories and from the rest of the present universe. But in that case if we go back, it will be like doing the experiment for the first time again.)
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:10 pm Some or most of you may be familiar with the famous physics thought experiment made by Erwin Schrodinger, called the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

So here is a very simple extension of the experiment. I decided to add another factor that may or may not affect quantum probability, which is time.

It goes like this: After the cat inside the box has either lived or died, one goes back in time (whether time travel is possible or not is not important to what this thought experiment attempts to question.) and re-runs the experiment again.

Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
Unfortunately, time travel brings with it its own problems. For example, your thought experiment begins thus:

We begin at some time T0. Your thought experiment continues:

After the cat inside the box has either lived or died...

So you move to some later time T1. Then your thought experiment continues:

...one goes back in time and re-runs the experiment again.

So one then changes their time again, from T1 to T2. Your experimental conditions just changed significantly. You cannot run the experiment "again", as it has not yet been run. The timeline is (in chronological order): T2, T0, T1.

The difficulties just get worse as things progress, don't they? 😉 Sorry, that's not schadenfreude, but just laughing at life, the universe and everything, because if you don't laugh, you'd have to cry. 😉
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Alan Masterman
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by Alan Masterman »

On the other hand, basic science theory tells us that the essence of experimental science is repeatability. If we perform the same experiment numerous times and get the same result every time, we are on the right track. If we get random or unpredictable responses every time, we have taken a wrong turn somewhere.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by value »

GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:10 pm Some or most of you may be familiar with the famous physics thought experiment made by Erwin Schrodinger, called the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment.

wikipedia - org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

So here is a very simple extension of the experiment. I decided to add another factor that may or may not affect quantum probability, which is time.

It goes like this: After the cat inside the box has either lived or died, one goes back in time (whether time travel is possible or not is not important to what this thought experiment attempts to question.) and re-runs the experiment again.

Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
One would first need to establish what causes the wave function collapse. If consciousness is truly at the root of the collapse, then, one is to ask: what is consciousness and does consciousness have a nature that can be captured in repeatability?

When repeatability does not apply to consciousness, then, your question would need to be answered with no. The origin of the wave function collapse cannot be pre-determined since it doesn't have a nature that is repeatable.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by value »

Alan Masterman wrote: July 7th, 2022, 1:37 pm On the other hand, basic science theory tells us that the essence of experimental science is repeatability. If we perform the same experiment numerous times and get the same result every time, we are on the right track. If we get random or unpredictable responses every time, we have taken a wrong turn somewhere.
Why would that imply a wrong turn? What theory would possibly provide validity for the idea that only that what is repeatable is meaningfully relevant?
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Alan Masterman wrote: July 7th, 2022, 1:37 pm On the other hand, basic science theory tells us that the essence of experimental science is repeatability. If we perform the same experiment numerous times and get the same result every time, we are on the right track. If we get random or unpredictable responses every time, we have taken a wrong turn somewhere.
value wrote: July 7th, 2022, 10:45 pm Why would that imply a wrong turn? What theory would possibly provide validity for the idea that only that what is repeatable is meaningfully relevant?
Yes, I was thinking along similar lines. "If we get random or unpredictable responses every time," perhaps we have discovered a random or unpredictable process? Would that be so bad? If so, why would it be bad?
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by Tegularius »

GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:10 pm
Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:10 pm

It goes like this: After the cat inside the box has either lived or died, one goes back in time (whether time travel is possible or not is not important to what this thought experiment attempts to question.) and re-runs the experiment again.

Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
You can't time travel under schrodinger's conditions. Remember that time travel is spacetime reality, not quantum reality. So, that's an invalid question.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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Elephant wrote: July 14th, 2022, 10:08 pm
GrayArea wrote: May 13th, 2022, 6:10 pm

It goes like this: After the cat inside the box has either lived or died, one goes back in time (whether time travel is possible or not is not important to what this thought experiment attempts to question.) and re-runs the experiment again.

Will the cat encounter the exact same fate no matter how many times we go back in time and re-run the experiment, or will the quantum probability be "reset" every time one turns back time?
You can't time travel under schrodinger's conditions. Remember that time travel is spacetime reality, not quantum reality. So, that's an invalid question.
Could you elaborate further? I am not a professional physicist therefore I do not have much knowledge on the subject matter. Thanks.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

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GrayArea wrote: July 15th, 2022, 6:14 pm
Could you elaborate further? I am not a professional physicist therefore I do not have much knowledge on the subject matter. Thanks.
I'm not a professional physicist either. I'm not a physicist at all. Why create a topic like this if you're going for a professional physicist's opinion?

Time travel is a philosophical topic -- it's a thought experiment. Schrodinger's cat is an attempt to demonstrate the quantum uncertainty. So I say your question is invalid because time travel has nothing to do with the quantum superposition which is the idea behind the schrodinger's thought experiment. Time travel is a thought experiment that uses spacetime -- a point in time and/or location which relies not on superposition but on specific configuration, i.e. we know exactly where we are and at what point in time we are, if time travel is possible at all.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by Sy Borg »

This looks like a question about determinism at quantum scales, whether the fluctuations we interpret as chaotic are, in fact, subject to undetected influences, perhaps at some smaller scale.
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by GrayArea »

Elephant wrote: July 17th, 2022, 11:55 pm
GrayArea wrote: July 15th, 2022, 6:14 pm
Could you elaborate further? I am not a professional physicist therefore I do not have much knowledge on the subject matter. Thanks.
I'm not a professional physicist either. I'm not a physicist at all. Why create a topic like this if you're going for a professional physicist's opinion?

Time travel is a philosophical topic -- it's a thought experiment. Schrodinger's cat is an attempt to demonstrate the quantum uncertainty. So I say your question is invalid because time travel has nothing to do with the quantum superposition which is the idea behind the schrodinger's thought experiment. Time travel is a thought experiment that uses spacetime -- a point in time and/or location which relies not on superposition but on specific configuration, i.e. we know exactly where we are and at what point in time we are, if time travel is possible at all.
The only reason why I told you I'm not a professional physicist was to signify that my mind was open for new and unheard ideas since there is a chance of me being wrong. It doesn't have anything to do with me wanting to *only* hear from the professionals.

However, I'm sorry—I still do not understand why time travel cannot happen here. Doesn't quantum superposition and its collapse still happen because time flows? So doesn't that mean that reverting back time after the collapse of the quantum superposition, will revert the collapse of the superposition?
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Re: An Extension of the Schrodinger's Cat Experiment

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GrayArea wrote: July 18th, 2022, 8:12 am Doesn't quantum superposition and its collapse still happen because time flows?
I'm not an expert either, but no, I don't think so.


GrayArea wrote: July 18th, 2022, 8:12 am So doesn't that mean that reverting back time after the collapse of the quantum superposition, will revert the collapse of the superposition?
Yes, it must. Given time as we understand it.
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