Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

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SteveKlinko
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Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by SteveKlinko »

1) Naive Realism Level: When we were young and Naive we looked out at the World and assumed that the Visual Experience we were Seeing was what the External World actually looked like. We did not think Deeper about what this Visual Experience actually could be. It was so simple then, we just looked out into the World and thought we Saw the World as it was. As we examined our Visual Experiences we could See that the different Objects out there had different Colors. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the things that we were Looking at. At this Level we thought our Visual Experience was painted with all the different Colors of all the Objects that are out there.

2) Physical Light Level: Most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Naive Realist Level, but we have Learned, Matured, and began Questioning things. We took some Science courses and found out that we do not directly See Objects in the World but rather we See the reflected Light from these Objects. This was a fantastic new Realization. Now when we observed our Visual Experience we could understand that we were merely Seeing reflected Light from Objects in the External World. We realized that our Visual Experience was now painted with all the possible Physical Light (Electromagnetic) Wavelengths that our Eye could Detect. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the actual Physical Light that was hitting the Retina. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the Electromagnetic Physical Light that we were Looking at. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Objects anymore.

3) Neural Light Level: Even though we knew it was the Physical Light, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Physical Light Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Physical Light Level, but we continued to Learn more. We took some courses in Eye Physiology and Brain Physiology which made us realize that we don't directly See the Physical Light that seemed to make up our Visual Experience. We found out that the Visual Experience that we See requires Neural Activity. This was again a fantastic new Realization. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the effect of our own internal Neurons Firing. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Physical Light anymore. Our Visual Experience was still painted with all the Colors that we have always Seen but we now knew that these Colors were generated Internally by our Brains and we understood that all these Colors were never something that was External. The Colors became Properties of Neural Activity. The Light was now understood to be something Inside of us.

4) Conscious Light Level: When we were at the Naive Realist Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the External World looked like. When we were at the Physical Light Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the Physical Light looked like. But when we attained the Neural Light Level there was not that same feeling of it making Sense. In fact, it made no Sense that the Neural Activity produced the beautiful panoramic Color Visual Experience that we all have. Where, after all, were all those Colors coming from inside the Neurons? How could Neurons Firing have a Property of Color? There was a problem here because we could not find any courses to take that would answer this latest question. Science had effectively hit a Brick Wall on this question. There was an Explanatory Gap at the Neural Light Level. It was clear that our Visual Experience was still that panoramic, Color filled, Experience that we always had. The Light was still there, being generated by the Brain in some way. But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience. It became an item of Faith that Science would figure out what the required Chain of Logic would be. Science has tried for a hundred years to figure this out. But there is nothing to show for the effort. Maybe the reason Science cannot find the Visual Light Experience in the Neurons is because it is Not in the Neurons. All we know is that Neural Activity happens and then a Visual Light Experience happens. It all seemed so simple when we were at the Neural Light Level, but we have Learned more, Matured more, and began Thinking Deeper about the Visual Experience. Even though we thought it was the Neurons, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask the question: "How does this Visual Light Experience actually happen from the Neural Activity"? It became clear that new ways of Thinking about the problem needed to be developed. This is what Science is supposed to do. This is how Science progresses. But instead, a lot of Scientists are still trying to push the Visual Light Experience back into the Neurons, but the Visual Light Experience refuses to be pushed into the Neurons. The Visual Light Experience seems to be something separate from the Neurons, even though we know it is probably connected to the Neural Activity in some way. The Visual Light Experience simply hovers and is embedded in the front of our faces, as will be explained and demonstrated later. We sense that it must be some kind of Conscious Experience concept that happens in some kind of Conscious Mind concept. But we cannot know that for sure. It just seems to be our best Speculation for progressing forward. What we are Seeing is our own Internal Conscious Light. The concept of Conscious Light will be fully developed and explained in the sections that follow. For now it can be said that we have never Seen an actual Object out in the World, nor do we See the actual reflected Light from an Object, nor do we See actual Neural Activity. Instead, we have always only Seen our own Internal Conscious Light. It is this Conscious Light (not Physical Electromagnetic Light) that is generated by our Internal Brain/Mind mechanism, and The Inter Mind website is devoted to pushing the boundaries of what can be known at the Conscious Light Level of understanding.
Atla
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 27th, 2022, 11:41 am 1) Naive Realism Level: When we were young and Naive we looked out at the World and assumed that the Visual Experience we were Seeing was what the External World actually looked like. We did not think Deeper about what this Visual Experience actually could be. It was so simple then, we just looked out into the World and thought we Saw the World as it was. As we examined our Visual Experiences we could See that the different Objects out there had different Colors. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the things that we were Looking at. At this Level we thought our Visual Experience was painted with all the different Colors of all the Objects that are out there.

2) Physical Light Level: Most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Naive Realist Level, but we have Learned, Matured, and began Questioning things. We took some Science courses and found out that we do not directly See Objects in the World but rather we See the reflected Light from these Objects. This was a fantastic new Realization. Now when we observed our Visual Experience we could understand that we were merely Seeing reflected Light from Objects in the External World. We realized that our Visual Experience was now painted with all the possible Physical Light (Electromagnetic) Wavelengths that our Eye could Detect. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the actual Physical Light that was hitting the Retina. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the Electromagnetic Physical Light that we were Looking at. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Objects anymore.

3) Neural Light Level: Even though we knew it was the Physical Light, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Physical Light Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Physical Light Level, but we continued to Learn more. We took some courses in Eye Physiology and Brain Physiology which made us realize that we don't directly See the Physical Light that seemed to make up our Visual Experience. We found out that the Visual Experience that we See requires Neural Activity. This was again a fantastic new Realization. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the effect of our own internal Neurons Firing. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Physical Light anymore. Our Visual Experience was still painted with all the Colors that we have always Seen but we now knew that these Colors were generated Internally by our Brains and we understood that all these Colors were never something that was External. The Colors became Properties of Neural Activity. The Light was now understood to be something Inside of us.

4) Conscious Light Level: When we were at the Naive Realist Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the External World looked like. When we were at the Physical Light Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the Physical Light looked like. But when we attained the Neural Light Level there was not that same feeling of it making Sense. In fact, it made no Sense that the Neural Activity produced the beautiful panoramic Color Visual Experience that we all have. Where, after all, were all those Colors coming from inside the Neurons? How could Neurons Firing have a Property of Color? There was a problem here because we could not find any courses to take that would answer this latest question. Science had effectively hit a Brick Wall on this question. There was an Explanatory Gap at the Neural Light Level. It was clear that our Visual Experience was still that panoramic, Color filled, Experience that we always had. The Light was still there, being generated by the Brain in some way. But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience. It became an item of Faith that Science would figure out what the required Chain of Logic would be. Science has tried for a hundred years to figure this out. But there is nothing to show for the effort. Maybe the reason Science cannot find the Visual Light Experience in the Neurons is because it is Not in the Neurons. All we know is that Neural Activity happens and then a Visual Light Experience happens. It all seemed so simple when we were at the Neural Light Level, but we have Learned more, Matured more, and began Thinking Deeper about the Visual Experience. Even though we thought it was the Neurons, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask the question: "How does this Visual Light Experience actually happen from the Neural Activity"? It became clear that new ways of Thinking about the problem needed to be developed. This is what Science is supposed to do. This is how Science progresses. But instead, a lot of Scientists are still trying to push the Visual Light Experience back into the Neurons, but the Visual Light Experience refuses to be pushed into the Neurons. The Visual Light Experience seems to be something separate from the Neurons, even though we know it is probably connected to the Neural Activity in some way. The Visual Light Experience simply hovers and is embedded in the front of our faces, as will be explained and demonstrated later. We sense that it must be some kind of Conscious Experience concept that happens in some kind of Conscious Mind concept. But we cannot know that for sure. It just seems to be our best Speculation for progressing forward. What we are Seeing is our own Internal Conscious Light. The concept of Conscious Light will be fully developed and explained in the sections that follow. For now it can be said that we have never Seen an actual Object out in the World, nor do we See the actual reflected Light from an Object, nor do we See actual Neural Activity. Instead, we have always only Seen our own Internal Conscious Light. It is this Conscious Light (not Physical Electromagnetic Light) that is generated by our Internal Brain/Mind mechanism, and The Inter Mind website is devoted to pushing the boundaries of what can be known at the Conscious Light Level of understanding.
First three are correct.

I'm no big fan of contintental philosophy, but even they would easily wipe floor with number 4 though. You skipped the part where we realize that, since 1-3 are true, things like "firing neurons" are just concepts in the mind, that point into the unknowable noumenal world.

So we try to equate a concept in the mind, which is sort of a concept-qualia, with a visual-qualia like red. That indeed makes no sense, but you (along with most science types) misunderstand why it doesn't make sense.

So you draw the wrong conclusion that therefore the red is probably not with the firing neurons.
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by Count Lucanor »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 27th, 2022, 11:41 am 1) Naive Realism Level: When we were young and Naive we looked out at the World and assumed that the Visual Experience we were Seeing was what the External World actually looked like. We did not think Deeper about what this Visual Experience actually could be. It was so simple then, we just looked out into the World and thought we Saw the World as it was. As we examined our Visual Experiences we could See that the different Objects out there had different Colors. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the things that we were Looking at. At this Level we thought our Visual Experience was painted with all the different Colors of all the Objects that are out there.

2) Physical Light Level: Most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Naive Realist Level, but we have Learned, Matured, and began Questioning things. We took some Science courses and found out that we do not directly See Objects in the World but rather we See the reflected Light from these Objects. This was a fantastic new Realization. Now when we observed our Visual Experience we could understand that we were merely Seeing reflected Light from Objects in the External World. We realized that our Visual Experience was now painted with all the possible Physical Light (Electromagnetic) Wavelengths that our Eye could Detect. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the actual Physical Light that was hitting the Retina. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the Electromagnetic Physical Light that we were Looking at. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Objects anymore.

3) Neural Light Level: Even though we knew it was the Physical Light, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Physical Light Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Physical Light Level, but we continued to Learn more. We took some courses in Eye Physiology and Brain Physiology which made us realize that we don't directly See the Physical Light that seemed to make up our Visual Experience. We found out that the Visual Experience that we See requires Neural Activity. This was again a fantastic new Realization. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the effect of our own internal Neurons Firing. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Physical Light anymore. Our Visual Experience was still painted with all the Colors that we have always Seen but we now knew that these Colors were generated Internally by our Brains and we understood that all these Colors were never something that was External. The Colors became Properties of Neural Activity. The Light was now understood to be something Inside of us.

4) Conscious Light Level: When we were at the Naive Realist Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the External World looked like. When we were at the Physical Light Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the Physical Light looked like. But when we attained the Neural Light Level there was not that same feeling of it making Sense. In fact, it made no Sense that the Neural Activity produced the beautiful panoramic Color Visual Experience that we all have. Where, after all, were all those Colors coming from inside the Neurons? How could Neurons Firing have a Property of Color? There was a problem here because we could not find any courses to take that would answer this latest question. Science had effectively hit a Brick Wall on this question. There was an Explanatory Gap at the Neural Light Level. It was clear that our Visual Experience was still that panoramic, Color filled, Experience that we always had. The Light was still there, being generated by the Brain in some way. But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience. It became an item of Faith that Science would figure out what the required Chain of Logic would be. Science has tried for a hundred years to figure this out. But there is nothing to show for the effort. Maybe the reason Science cannot find the Visual Light Experience in the Neurons is because it is Not in the Neurons. All we know is that Neural Activity happens and then a Visual Light Experience happens. It all seemed so simple when we were at the Neural Light Level, but we have Learned more, Matured more, and began Thinking Deeper about the Visual Experience. Even though we thought it was the Neurons, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask the question: "How does this Visual Light Experience actually happen from the Neural Activity"? It became clear that new ways of Thinking about the problem needed to be developed. This is what Science is supposed to do. This is how Science progresses. But instead, a lot of Scientists are still trying to push the Visual Light Experience back into the Neurons, but the Visual Light Experience refuses to be pushed into the Neurons. The Visual Light Experience seems to be something separate from the Neurons, even though we know it is probably connected to the Neural Activity in some way. The Visual Light Experience simply hovers and is embedded in the front of our faces, as will be explained and demonstrated later. We sense that it must be some kind of Conscious Experience concept that happens in some kind of Conscious Mind concept. But we cannot know that for sure. It just seems to be our best Speculation for progressing forward. What we are Seeing is our own Internal Conscious Light. The concept of Conscious Light will be fully developed and explained in the sections that follow. For now it can be said that we have never Seen an actual Object out in the World, nor do we See the actual reflected Light from an Object, nor do we See actual Neural Activity. Instead, we have always only Seen our own Internal Conscious Light. It is this Conscious Light (not Physical Electromagnetic Light) that is generated by our Internal Brain/Mind mechanism, and The Inter Mind website is devoted to pushing the boundaries of what can be known at the Conscious Light Level of understanding.
#1 and #2 are more or less true. They focus only on color, which is only one property we identify in objects. #3 is disputable, since our sensations DO depend on a physical reality (light) independent of our ourselves. It is not produced by our brain and it can be demonstrated that light existed before there were sentient beings. #4 just exploits the false premises from #1 to #3.
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by Pattern-chaser »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 27th, 2022, 11:41 am But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience.
Might that be because the chain of logic runs in the opposite direction? That the logic takes us from "Visual Light" to neurons firing? If that was so, would it change your reasoning?
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

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SteveKlinko wrote: May 27th, 2022, 11:41 am But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience.
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 28th, 2022, 6:38 am Might that be because the chain of logic runs in the opposite direction? That the logic takes us from "Visual Light" to neurons firing? If that was so, would it change your reasoning?
🤔🤔🤔

Or maybe that should be "That the logic takes us from "Visual Light" to neurons firing, and thereby to the "Visual Light Experience""?
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: May 27th, 2022, 12:31 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: May 27th, 2022, 11:41 am 1) Naive Realism Level: When we were young and Naive we looked out at the World and assumed that the Visual Experience we were Seeing was what the External World actually looked like. We did not think Deeper about what this Visual Experience actually could be. It was so simple then, we just looked out into the World and thought we Saw the World as it was. As we examined our Visual Experiences we could See that the different Objects out there had different Colors. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the things that we were Looking at. At this Level we thought our Visual Experience was painted with all the different Colors of all the Objects that are out there.

2) Physical Light Level: Most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Naive Realist Level, but we have Learned, Matured, and began Questioning things. We took some Science courses and found out that we do not directly See Objects in the World but rather we See the reflected Light from these Objects. This was a fantastic new Realization. Now when we observed our Visual Experience we could understand that we were merely Seeing reflected Light from Objects in the External World. We realized that our Visual Experience was now painted with all the possible Physical Light (Electromagnetic) Wavelengths that our Eye could Detect. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the actual Physical Light that was hitting the Retina. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the Electromagnetic Physical Light that we were Looking at. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Objects anymore.

3) Neural Light Level: Even though we knew it was the Physical Light, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Physical Light Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Physical Light Level, but we continued to Learn more. We took some courses in Eye Physiology and Brain Physiology which made us realize that we don't directly See the Physical Light that seemed to make up our Visual Experience. We found out that the Visual Experience that we See requires Neural Activity. This was again a fantastic new Realization. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the effect of our own internal Neurons Firing. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Physical Light anymore. Our Visual Experience was still painted with all the Colors that we have always Seen but we now knew that these Colors were generated Internally by our Brains and we understood that all these Colors were never something that was External. The Colors became Properties of Neural Activity. The Light was now understood to be something Inside of us.

4) Conscious Light Level: When we were at the Naive Realist Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the External World looked like. When we were at the Physical Light Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the Physical Light looked like. But when we attained the Neural Light Level there was not that same feeling of it making Sense. In fact, it made no Sense that the Neural Activity produced the beautiful panoramic Color Visual Experience that we all have. Where, after all, were all those Colors coming from inside the Neurons? How could Neurons Firing have a Property of Color? There was a problem here because we could not find any courses to take that would answer this latest question. Science had effectively hit a Brick Wall on this question. There was an Explanatory Gap at the Neural Light Level. It was clear that our Visual Experience was still that panoramic, Color filled, Experience that we always had. The Light was still there, being generated by the Brain in some way. But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience. It became an item of Faith that Science would figure out what the required Chain of Logic would be. Science has tried for a hundred years to figure this out. But there is nothing to show for the effort. Maybe the reason Science cannot find the Visual Light Experience in the Neurons is because it is Not in the Neurons. All we know is that Neural Activity happens and then a Visual Light Experience happens. It all seemed so simple when we were at the Neural Light Level, but we have Learned more, Matured more, and began Thinking Deeper about the Visual Experience. Even though we thought it was the Neurons, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask the question: "How does this Visual Light Experience actually happen from the Neural Activity"? It became clear that new ways of Thinking about the problem needed to be developed. This is what Science is supposed to do. This is how Science progresses. But instead, a lot of Scientists are still trying to push the Visual Light Experience back into the Neurons, but the Visual Light Experience refuses to be pushed into the Neurons. The Visual Light Experience seems to be something separate from the Neurons, even though we know it is probably connected to the Neural Activity in some way. The Visual Light Experience simply hovers and is embedded in the front of our faces, as will be explained and demonstrated later. We sense that it must be some kind of Conscious Experience concept that happens in some kind of Conscious Mind concept. But we cannot know that for sure. It just seems to be our best Speculation for progressing forward. What we are Seeing is our own Internal Conscious Light. The concept of Conscious Light will be fully developed and explained in the sections that follow. For now it can be said that we have never Seen an actual Object out in the World, nor do we See the actual reflected Light from an Object, nor do we See actual Neural Activity. Instead, we have always only Seen our own Internal Conscious Light. It is this Conscious Light (not Physical Electromagnetic Light) that is generated by our Internal Brain/Mind mechanism, and The Inter Mind website is devoted to pushing the boundaries of what can be known at the Conscious Light Level of understanding.
First three are correct.

I'm no big fan of contintental philosophy, but even they would easily wipe floor with number 4 though. You skipped the part where we realize that, since 1-3 are true, things like "firing neurons" are just concepts in the mind, that point into the unknowable noumenal world.
Don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Firing Neurons are not just Concepts in the Mind.
Atla wrote: May 27th, 2022, 12:31 pm So we try to equate a concept in the mind, which is sort of a concept-qualia, with a visual-qualia like red. That indeed makes no sense, but you (along with most science types) misunderstand why it doesn't make sense.

So you draw the wrong conclusion that therefore the red is probably not with the firing neurons.
So then how does the Red come from the Neurons?
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by SteveKlinko »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 28th, 2022, 6:43 am
SteveKlinko wrote: May 27th, 2022, 11:41 am But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience.
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 28th, 2022, 6:38 am Might that be because the chain of logic runs in the opposite direction? That the logic takes us from "Visual Light" to neurons firing? If that was so, would it change your reasoning?
🤔🤔🤔

Or maybe that should be "That the logic takes us from "Visual Light" to neurons firing, and thereby to the "Visual Light Experience""?
Of course you can start with the Visual Light (Electromagnetic?), and I do, but what is the Chain of Logic that takes you from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience?
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 28th, 2022, 8:41 am Don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Firing Neurons are not just Concepts in the Mind.
All of science is descriptive about the noumenal world. "Neuron" is a concept. Everything in science is a concept. No one has ever literally seen a neuron. You tried to literally equate a concept with a visual qualia.
So then how does the Red come from the Neurons?
It doesn't come from the neurons. The "firing of the neurons" are the red, probably. Or at least are part of it/close to it: some part of the physical brain IS the red.

Or in other words, the "firing of the neurons" is a concept pointing to the noumenal red.
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by SteveKlinko »

Atla wrote: May 28th, 2022, 8:58 am
SteveKlinko wrote: May 28th, 2022, 8:41 am Don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Firing Neurons are not just Concepts in the Mind.
All of science is descriptive about the noumenal world. "Neuron" is a concept. Everything in science is a concept. No one has ever literally seen a neuron. You tried to literally equate a concept with a visual qualia.
So then how does the Red come from the Neurons?
It doesn't come from the neurons. The "firing of the neurons" are the red, probably. Or at least are part of it/close to it: some part of the physical brain IS the red.

Or in other words, the "firing of the neurons" is a concept pointing to the noumenal red.
No one has ever seen a Neuron? You mean with the Naked Eye? Are you playing Semantics? There is no Noumenal Red in the External World. Redness is only in the Conscious Mind. We have more quickly, than usual, gotten to the Impasse point on this one!
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by Atla »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 28th, 2022, 9:26 am
Atla wrote: May 28th, 2022, 8:58 am
SteveKlinko wrote: May 28th, 2022, 8:41 am Don't quite understand what you are trying to say. Firing Neurons are not just Concepts in the Mind.
All of science is descriptive about the noumenal world. "Neuron" is a concept. Everything in science is a concept. No one has ever literally seen a neuron. You tried to literally equate a concept with a visual qualia.
So then how does the Red come from the Neurons?
It doesn't come from the neurons. The "firing of the neurons" are the red, probably. Or at least are part of it/close to it: some part of the physical brain IS the red.

Or in other words, the "firing of the neurons" is a concept pointing to the noumenal red.
No one has ever seen a Neuron? You mean with the Naked Eye? Are you playing Semantics? There is no Noumenal Red in the External World. Redness is only in the Conscious Mind. We have more quickly, than usual, gotten to the Impasse point on this one!
And your excuse for having no idea about the nature of human existence?
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by Pattern-chaser »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 28th, 2022, 8:45 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 28th, 2022, 6:43 am
SteveKlinko wrote: May 27th, 2022, 11:41 am But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience.
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 28th, 2022, 6:38 am Might that be because the chain of logic runs in the opposite direction? That the logic takes us from "Visual Light" to neurons firing? If that was so, would it change your reasoning?
🤔🤔🤔

Or maybe that should be "That the logic takes us from "Visual Light" to neurons firing, and thereby to the "Visual Light Experience""?
Of course you can start with the Visual Light (Electromagnetic?), and I do, but what is the Chain of Logic that takes you from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience?
Chain of logic? I don't think we have anything, theoretical or practical, that we could reasonably call a "chain of logic". All we have, as far as I know, is a supposition that these neurons, combined and connected together, give rise to the functionality we're looking for. It is a plausible supposition, but not more than that.

Each neuron has 1000s or 10000s of connections, and there are around 86 billion neurons, so a brain is a network of awesome complexity. And so, just as the interaction of millions of bytes of executable code can result in a program as complex and functionally-capable as Microsoft Word, so (we suppose) might this network of neurons produce the "Visual Light Experience".
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by Gertie »

Steve
Maybe the reason Science cannot find the Visual Light Experience in the Neurons is because it is Not in the Neurons. All we know is that Neural Activity happens and then a Visual Light Experience happens.
You're right there is an Explanatory Gap and that our scientific physicalist model can't currently account for conscious experience and doesn't even have an in principle physicalist possible explanation to explore. Unless you count ''emergence'' which in reality is a place-holder for the currently missing physicalist explanation.


This opens up all sorts of speculative possibilities, but we've gotten this far by following the evidence. And probably the most significant piece of evidence we have is neural correlation. All the evidence suggests that when photons interact with the retina, a causal reaction is sparked in neurons which are part of our visual subsystem, and if you interfere with those neurons, if they've damaged, the correlated visual experience changes. There's something happening in those interactions which we don't understand. (That goes for all sensory subsystems). But if there is damage to the non-visual front of my face, my visual experience isn't affected - so the evidence doesn't support this -

.
The Visual Light Experience simply hovers and is embedded in the front of our faces, as will be explained and demonstrated later.
Is it all over my face? If I scratch my face why doesn't it affect my vision, but rather my sense of touch which correlates with nerve endings causally activating my neural touch system?

And there would presumably have to be some hovering something embedded in front of my ears experiencing sound, in front of my tongue for tasting, my nose for smelling and every nerve ending for touching. Also between my neurons when I'm remembering or thinking, hovering embedded in my toe when it itches, my tummy when I'm hungry, my etc.

There's evidence for neural activity being involved, where's the evidence for these hovering sense somethings embedded over the surface of my body and inside it?

It's possible you're onto something, but to me it looks like when it comes to our experienced interactions with the world, all roads lead to neurons - from eyes, ears, nose, tongue and every single nerve ending. And then motor neurons 'issue instructions' back out to our body parts on how to respond to what we experience -

There's an apple on the table - photons hit eye-balls, visual neurons are stimulated, they interact with motor neurons, and my arm reaches out to pick it up and stick in my mouth. Functionally, it's a straightforward explanation, it all works as you'd expect if neural activity was doing the functional work. We just don't know how.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by JackDaydream »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 27th, 2022, 11:41 am 1) Naive Realism Level: When we were young and Naive we looked out at the World and assumed that the Visual Experience we were Seeing was what the External World actually looked like. We did not think Deeper about what this Visual Experience actually could be. It was so simple then, we just looked out into the World and thought we Saw the World as it was. As we examined our Visual Experiences we could See that the different Objects out there had different Colors. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the things that we were Looking at. At this Level we thought our Visual Experience was painted with all the different Colors of all the Objects that are out there.

2) Physical Light Level: Most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Naive Realist Level, but we have Learned, Matured, and began Questioning things. We took some Science courses and found out that we do not directly See Objects in the World but rather we See the reflected Light from these Objects. This was a fantastic new Realization. Now when we observed our Visual Experience we could understand that we were merely Seeing reflected Light from Objects in the External World. We realized that our Visual Experience was now painted with all the possible Physical Light (Electromagnetic) Wavelengths that our Eye could Detect. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the actual Physical Light that was hitting the Retina. We thought that the Colors were a direct Property of the Electromagnetic Physical Light that we were Looking at. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Objects anymore.

3) Neural Light Level: Even though we knew it was the Physical Light, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask a question: "How does this Visual Physical Light Experience actually happen"? It all seemed so simple when we were at the Physical Light Level, but we continued to Learn more. We took some courses in Eye Physiology and Brain Physiology which made us realize that we don't directly See the Physical Light that seemed to make up our Visual Experience. We found out that the Visual Experience that we See requires Neural Activity. This was again a fantastic new Realization. From this Perspective we thought we were Seeing the effect of our own internal Neurons Firing. We were closer to Reality because at least we now understood that we were not Seeing the actual Physical Light anymore. Our Visual Experience was still painted with all the Colors that we have always Seen but we now knew that these Colors were generated Internally by our Brains and we understood that all these Colors were never something that was External. The Colors became Properties of Neural Activity. The Light was now understood to be something Inside of us.

4) Conscious Light Level: When we were at the Naive Realist Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the External World looked like. When we were at the Physical Light Level it made sense that our Visual Experience was actually showing us what the Physical Light looked like. But when we attained the Neural Light Level there was not that same feeling of it making Sense. In fact, it made no Sense that the Neural Activity produced the beautiful panoramic Color Visual Experience that we all have. Where, after all, were all those Colors coming from inside the Neurons? How could Neurons Firing have a Property of Color? There was a problem here because we could not find any courses to take that would answer this latest question. Science had effectively hit a Brick Wall on this question. There was an Explanatory Gap at the Neural Light Level. It was clear that our Visual Experience was still that panoramic, Color filled, Experience that we always had. The Light was still there, being generated by the Brain in some way. But there was no Chain of Logic that could take us from Neurons Firing to the Visual Light Experience. It became an item of Faith that Science would figure out what the required Chain of Logic would be. Science has tried for a hundred years to figure this out. But there is nothing to show for the effort. Maybe the reason Science cannot find the Visual Light Experience in the Neurons is because it is Not in the Neurons. All we know is that Neural Activity happens and then a Visual Light Experience happens. It all seemed so simple when we were at the Neural Light Level, but we have Learned more, Matured more, and began Thinking Deeper about the Visual Experience. Even though we thought it was the Neurons, most technical minded people were eventually driven to ask the question: "How does this Visual Light Experience actually happen from the Neural Activity"? It became clear that new ways of Thinking about the problem needed to be developed. This is what Science is supposed to do. This is how Science progresses. But instead, a lot of Scientists are still trying to push the Visual Light Experience back into the Neurons, but the Visual Light Experience refuses to be pushed into the Neurons. The Visual Light Experience seems to be something separate from the Neurons, even though we know it is probably connected to the Neural Activity in some way. The Visual Light Experience simply hovers and is embedded in the front of our faces, as will be explained and demonstrated later. We sense that it must be some kind of Conscious Experience concept that happens in some kind of Conscious Mind concept. But we cannot know that for sure. It just seems to be our best Speculation for progressing forward. What we are Seeing is our own Internal Conscious Light. The concept of Conscious Light will be fully developed and explained in the sections that follow. For now it can be said that we have never Seen an actual Object out in the World, nor do we See the actual reflected Light from an Object, nor do we See actual Neural Activity. Instead, we have always only Seen our own Internal Conscious Light. It is this Conscious Light (not Physical Electromagnetic Light) that is generated by our Internal Brain/Mind mechanism, and The Inter Mind website is devoted to pushing the boundaries of what can be known at the Conscious Light Level of understanding.
I find the nature of vision very interesting since I was referred to an eye clinic for some abnormalities showing up in a retinal scan at the optician. I also began reading about the eyes and aspects of eye disorders when I was given the possible diagnosis of Coates disease which is a rare condition which usually is found in male infants, and I was an adult. We have already discussed vision in another thread because you spoke of some issues of your own, and I think I remember you saying that you found yourself asking if the light was in your mind..

I do still read about eye disorders, but not too much because I don't wish to worry too much because one of my greatest fears is blindness. The issue of light and dark may be a matter of qualia, as well as colours, but it may be about waves and frequencies which can be detected in relation to neurons. The retina is part of the brain itself which I did not know until I began reading. The whole eye can be seen as like an instrument, with the various components, including the macular and optic nerve, from which any problems in any part can cause major problems. It also has important systemic relationships with aspects of the body. Other health problems, especially diabetes and heart disease can be picked up through eye examinations.

In certain ways, the eye can be seen like a camera which is able to record pictures in an accurate and technical way. What I also found interesting to read about is how the eye and the ear form from the same nodule before birth. This is meant to be an explanation of synthasaesia, in which sight and sound are experienced as interconnected.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

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JackDaydream wrote: May 29th, 2022, 6:58 pm The retina is part of the brain itself which I did not know until I began reading.
I believe the optic nerve is also usefully considered to be part of the brain. 👍


JackDaydream wrote: May 29th, 2022, 6:58 pm In certain ways, the eye can be seen like a camera which is able to record pictures in an accurate and technical way.
This is in contrast to my own belief, that the eye is an instrument that is very limited indeed, and that it is a miracle of the brain/mind/perception that our apparent vision is so impressively capable.
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Re: Levels Of Understanding For The Human Visual Experience

Post by JackDaydream »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 30th, 2022, 4:19 am
JackDaydream wrote: May 29th, 2022, 6:58 pm The retina is part of the brain itself which I did not know until I began reading.
I believe the optic nerve is also usefully considered to be part of the brain. 👍


JackDaydream wrote: May 29th, 2022, 6:58 pm In certain ways, the eye can be seen like a camera which is able to record pictures in an accurate and technical way.
This is in contrast to my own belief, that the eye is an instrument that is very limited indeed, and that it is a miracle of the brain/mind/perception that our apparent vision is so impressively capable.
I don't disagree with your own idea of the miraculous aspect of vision and my comparison with a camera is more my amazement at cameras, just as I have always been taken aback by the way in which records and CDs can capture sound and music. But, there does still need to be a brain as a structure of human consciousness to experience the photographic images and the recordings of music as the phenomenological aspect of sensory experiences.
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