The Great Embarrassment Of Science

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The Great Embarrassment Of Science

Post by Pattern-chaser »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 30th, 2022, 11:04 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:55 am
SteveKlinko wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:46 am I think Science can understand everything, but they need to get out of their little Physicalist Fantasy Worlds.
Science cannot even begin to examine or investigate a problem that comes without sufficient evidence of a 'scientific' standard, or even with no evidence at all. Thus, science cannot understand "everything". The only refutation sciencists have come up with for this is that such problems are not worthy of consideration. Not worthy! Since when has unworthiness ever influenced the course of human enquiry? Since we do feel the need to investigate such issues, we use the techniques of serious thinking/thought that have always been there, outside of science.
I agree, Science is not even trying. So we must Speculate.
Even if science was trying as hard as it could, there are still issues whereon we can only speculate (as I describe above).
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Re: The Great Embarrassment Of Science

Post by SteveKlinko »

LuckyR wrote: May 30th, 2022, 4:51 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: May 29th, 2022, 9:06 am
Sculptor1 wrote: May 29th, 2022, 8:17 am
SteveKlinko wrote: May 28th, 2022, 11:26 am The Conscious Visual Experience, especially Conscious Color, is not studied by Science, because Scientists have not found a way to study it. Scientists cannot directly Measure it because there are no Conscious Visual Experience detectors, and Scientists do not know how to design such detectors. Instead, Scientists have been forced to at least ignore the Conscious Visual Experience, and at worst to completely deny the existence of the Conscious Visual Experience. Because of this unscientific behavior, Consciousness remains a huge Skeleton In The Closet for Science. This Gap in understanding Conscious Experience is, and should be, an Embarrassment for Science. Not because Science cannot Explain it, but because Science is trying to hide and cover up the fact that Science cannot Explain it. It is actually very disappointing to me that, that is the case.
No one in science finds this embarrassing. I suppose the main reason is that we have no need to measure it since it is the essence of our personal experience and nothing more would be learned by measuring what we know already.
We need not search for a way to study what we already study without effort.
What is more interesting is the physical conditions that we sense, and science is doing very well unpacking objective information about that all the time.
It is Embarrassing to Science if they don't even realize the Embarrassment of it. We know our individual Conscious Experiences happen, but we don't know what another persons Experience is like. And we don't really know what our own Conscious Experience is, even though we know it Exists. It would be a big mistake to just Believe that our Experiences are all alike. I want to make Conscious Machines. I cannot do it with the current state of unknowing within Science. I am an Engineer and I depend on Scientists discovering things that I can incorporate into practical products.
The answer is simple: become a scientist and figure it out where all of those losers have failed, then you won't have to be embarrassed anymore.
I am figuring it out using a Systems Engineering and Signal Processing approach.
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Re: The Great Embarrassment Of Science

Post by SteveKlinko »

Sy Borg wrote: May 30th, 2022, 9:20 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: May 30th, 2022, 10:42 am
Sy Borg wrote: May 29th, 2022, 3:49 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: May 29th, 2022, 9:06 amI want to make Conscious Machines.
You probably already have done. Are they at school yet? :)

Seriously, your wish is akin to Musk wanting to build settlements on Mars. The technology is not there at this stage, and it's uncertain if it ever will be.
In my own small way, I am trying to make it happen.
It seems to me that there is a conceptual blind spot because we humans are examining the functions of our own bodies, and we tend to see ourselves as a single, seamless whole. The self. The personality. However, the self is an end product.

Each individual is akin to a planet, with numerous microbial ecosystems, counting cells as hyper-integrated microbial communities, like the "humans" of the single celled world.

While all of these communities appear to be cooperating, they are actually competing but have achieved a power balance. The communities compete in much the same way as local councils compete for state and federal revenue. Generally speaking, a council won't say no if pork barrelling politicians happen to give them inordinate share of funding at the expense of other councils.

Once a person dies, their cooperative communities of gut single-celled organisms will eat the dying cells that line the stomach. Allies one day, food the next. Earlier in evolutionary history, the communities that make up the gut and the reproductive systems were most important, and the job of brains was to help to feel and to protect these primary body communities. In humans, the roles are reversed. There's been a takeover, where the brain has become the locus of existence, and job of the metabolic communities is largely to feed the brain. In humans, the brain comprises 2% of total mass, but it consumed 20% of the body's energy.

Not sure where this is going, just riffing to see what angles emerge ...
I think Consciousness can Connect to any kind of properly fitted Machine including Microbial Infested Bio Machines.
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Re: The Great Embarrassment Of Science

Post by intentes_pupil »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 28th, 2022, 11:26 am The Conscious Visual Experience, especially Conscious Color, is not studied by Science, because Scientists have not found a way to study it. Scientists cannot directly Measure it because there are no Conscious Visual Experience detectors, and Scientists do not know how to design such detectors. Instead, Scientists have been forced to at least ignore the Conscious Visual Experience, and at worst to completely deny the existence of the Conscious Visual Experience. Because of this unscientific behavior, Consciousness remains a huge Skeleton In The Closet for Science. This Gap in understanding Conscious Experience is, and should be, an Embarrassment for Science. Not because Science cannot Explain it, but because Science is trying to hide and cover up the fact that Science cannot Explain it. It is actually very disappointing to me that, that is the case.

In the book "Galileo's Error" by Philip Goff, you find a very good explanation of what Panpsychism is and what the aim of this thinking branch is. In a nutshell, Panpsychism tries put an end to the historical fight between Idealism and Materialism while trying not to detach from science. This is done by defining a unit of Consciousness as axiom, from which science can develop and theoretically derive the whole Physics.

This is a very convincing theory given the arguments and I think is the solution to your yearning.

Given this theory I would not say that Science should be embarrassed, because historically Science means nothing more than a bunch of Axioms that are believed to be true, from which rationally and through empirical proof other laws, theorems and principles are derived.
Subjectivity was always cut out of the game, since it was understood as something that cannot be falsifiable and therefore cannot be proofed through the scientific method.

BUT! The issue you describe is still there! How can you deny the existence of consciousness if that is the very first self-evident experience?

Therefore Panpsychism suggests to include Consciousness as basic Unit (let's say like Energy). That way you get rid of the incongruences both Idealism and Materialism end up to (Hard Problem, Philosophical Zombies, etc).

In the end, Science is and will be influenced by Philosophy and scientist's thoughts, ideas, religion, etc. Therefore, if scientists end up embracing Panpsychism and do Science with Consciousness as axiom, as basic unit, they might end up deriving and developing higher theories of Consciousness that might explain thinks like sense of self, communion, spirituality experiences, Concious Visual Experience, etc.
SteveKlinko
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Re: The Great Embarrassment Of Science

Post by SteveKlinko »

intentes_pupil wrote: June 1st, 2022, 5:09 am
SteveKlinko wrote: May 28th, 2022, 11:26 am The Conscious Visual Experience, especially Conscious Color, is not studied by Science, because Scientists have not found a way to study it. Scientists cannot directly Measure it because there are no Conscious Visual Experience detectors, and Scientists do not know how to design such detectors. Instead, Scientists have been forced to at least ignore the Conscious Visual Experience, and at worst to completely deny the existence of the Conscious Visual Experience. Because of this unscientific behavior, Consciousness remains a huge Skeleton In The Closet for Science. This Gap in understanding Conscious Experience is, and should be, an Embarrassment for Science. Not because Science cannot Explain it, but because Science is trying to hide and cover up the fact that Science cannot Explain it. It is actually very disappointing to me that, that is the case.

In the book "Galileo's Error" by Philip Goff, you find a very good explanation of what Panpsychism is and what the aim of this thinking branch is. In a nutshell, Panpsychism tries put an end to the historical fight between Idealism and Materialism while trying not to detach from science. This is done by defining a unit of Consciousness as axiom, from which science can develop and theoretically derive the whole Physics.

This is a very convincing theory given the arguments and I think is the solution to your yearning.

Given this theory I would not say that Science should be embarrassed, because historically Science means nothing more than a bunch of Axioms that are believed to be true, from which rationally and through empirical proof other laws, theorems and principles are derived.
Subjectivity was always cut out of the game, since it was understood as something that cannot be falsifiable and therefore cannot be proofed through the scientific method.

BUT! The issue you describe is still there! How can you deny the existence of consciousness if that is the very first self-evident experience?

Therefore Panpsychism suggests to include Consciousness as basic Unit (let's say like Energy). That way you get rid of the incongruences both Idealism and Materialism end up to (Hard Problem, Philosophical Zombies, etc).

In the end, Science is and will be influenced by Philosophy and scientist's thoughts, ideas, religion, etc. Therefore, if scientists end up embracing Panpsychism and do Science with Consciousness as axiom, as basic unit, they might end up deriving and developing higher theories of Consciousness that might explain thinks like sense of self, communion, spirituality experiences, Concious Visual Experience, etc.
When it comes to Consciousness anything is possible. We just don't know. Panpsychism is therefore a possibility. The problem with Pansychism as proposed by Goff is that it is an attempt to somehow push Conscious Experience into the Materialism of Physics. But trying to say there is such things as elementary particles of Consciousness that can combine to form Molecules of Consciousness and then eventually form some Bulk Consciousness Phenomenon is actually a Naïve and Incoherent process. It is a frantic attempt to cling to some terminology from Material Science and reframe it for Consciousness. They start with that elementary particle of Consciousness. What the heck is that? It is really pretty Snake Oilish if you stop and think about it. If you put it to the test by asking: How do you Explain the Experience of something like Redness with this, you immediately hit a Brick Wall. There is no possible Chain of Logic that is ever going to Explain Redness with some last Gasp Materialistic theory like this. I would like to even see a hint as to how Panpsychism is anything more than an Embarrassing attempt to cover up the fact that Conscious Experiences are going to need some theories that go beyond Material Physics.
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