Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Astro Cat »

psyreporter wrote: June 19th, 2022, 6:59 am It was by no means my intention to suggest a conspiracy theory.

The active protection of the Big Bang theory is simply something that I have perceived to a phenomenon for which I have sought an explanation. The banning and questionable 'deletion' of a post on Space.com is simply an example. My posts were neatly written and not suggestive of a conspiracy theory. Also, the replies by dozens of users were serious and some shared the perspective posed in the OP. The post about the Big Bang theory seemed popular and a success (qualitative discussion).

@Astro Cat do you believe that the story about the history of the Big Bang theory and the questions that I thought to be applicable are indicative of the thought of a conspiracy theory?

It seems apparent that I simply seek an answer to the simple question what the motive of Albert Einstein has been to do certain things that - in combination - seem questionable in nature.

For example, when you look at the information in my previous post, there is this additional fact that Albert Einstein's profound critical stance with regard the expanding Universe theory - two years after the discovery by Edwin Hubble - was just a year before he 'suddenly' admitted to priest Lemaître that he was wrong.

Einstein then uses the public argument that he was convinced by 'listening' to a beautiful creation story, and then, which in my opinion is exceptionally questionable in the face of the preceding facts - for example the habitual misspelling of Edwin Hubble's name in a scientific paper that was mysteriously lost and found in Jerusalem half a century later - joins priest Lemaître on a tour across the USA to promote the Big Bang theory.
Typing on a tiny screen, so my response will be limited.

My last comment was referring to the post just above it that was filled with anti-Semitic myths, think I even saw Holocaust denial implied from the context (though I don’t know for sure).

My comment wasn’t directed at you.

I’ll be addressing your OP when I’m at my PC and have access to some images and plots I put together for a couple talks I gave on baryon acoustic oscillations and constraining the dark energy with high redshift supernovae.

To respond to your post I’ll have to establish several things about how we know the expansion is real (it’s not a Doppler effect by the way, for instance: the local motion of galaxies relative to each other, called peculiar motion, does give the Doppler effect but redshifting from expansion is not the Doppler effect).

I’ll have to establish how we know the density parameters of radiation and baryonic matter, then also of dark matter, then why the remaining density parameter is the dark energy.

I’ll basically walk through a refutation of most of the post and an explanation for why we use the cosmological models that we use: how we know it, and why these “problems” brought up aren’t really problems. It’ll be fun!
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Astro Cat »

For instance I have a real fun plot I want to talk about where prediction based on expansion models matched observation with WMAP and later Planck so well in the power spectrum (from the spherical harmonics, plotted against temperature anisotropies) that you have to blow up the error bars some 200x before they’re even visible to the naked eye on a plot!
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Astro Cat »

Before I started my galaxy quiescence research I was researching dark energy constraints, so a LOT of the OP is in the direct purview of my expertise. I apologize in advance because my posts are going to be long, but hopefully illustrative (literally, with some of my plots and images).
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by psyreporter »

Atla wrote: June 19th, 2022, 1:52 am Still, the Big Bang theory seems to be fairly accurate, I think it will be replaced by something relatively similar in the future.
Do you have a philosophical foundation for the idea that the Universe is physically finite of nature?

In my opinion, finitude as a concept originates from pattern recognition. A pattern is the foundation of the concept finitude by the "begin" that is introduced by an observer (the observing mind). Finitude requires activity of an observer before it can be considered. It would imply that the Universe is infinite on a fundamental level.
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Atla »

Astro Cat wrote: June 19th, 2022, 4:38 am Yikes, some of this conspiracy theory stuff is perpetuating serious anti-Semitic myths. :(
At least 99% of the Jews would be pawns in this game, just like everyone else. It would be just more calculated programming that this is about Semitism vs anti-Semitism.
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by psyreporter »

Angelo Cannata wrote: June 18th, 2022, 2:19 pm This doesn’t connect at all the big bang theory with religion.
Thinking that “The Big Bang theory is a theory that is compatible with a creation story in the Bible” means having a completely wrong understanding of the Bible: the Bible is not at all a physics book about how the world began.
What do you think of the information about the history of the Big Bang theory? If the theory was originally intended to serve religious purposes, would it not be religious to attempt to maintain the theory against reason?

For example, when you look at the information in my previous post, there is this additional fact that Albert Einstein's profound critical stance with regard the expanding Universe theory - two years after the discovery by Edwin Hubble - was just a year before he 'suddenly' admitted to priest Lemaître that he was wrong.

Einstein then uses the public argument that he was convinced by 'listening' to a beautiful creation story, and then, which in my opinion is exceptionally questionable in the face of the preceding facts - for example the habitual misspelling of Edwin Hubble's name in a scientific paper that was mysteriously lost and found in Jerusalem half a century later - joins priest Lemaître on a tour across the USA to promote the Big Bang theory.
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Atla »

psyreporter wrote: June 19th, 2022, 7:45 am
Atla wrote: June 19th, 2022, 1:52 am Still, the Big Bang theory seems to be fairly accurate, I think it will be replaced by something relatively similar in the future.
Do you have a philosophical foundation for the idea that the Universe is physically finite of nature?

In my opinion, finitude as a concept originates from pattern recognition. A pattern is the foundation of the concept finitude by the "begin" that is introduced by an observer (the observing mind). Finitude requires activity of an observer before it can be considered. It would imply that the Universe is infinite on a fundamental level.
Didn't you already ask me this? I think the default view is that dimensions go around, so the universe is finite but has no edge.
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by psyreporter »

Yes, my apologies. You mentioned that you view time as going in a circle shape (block Universe theory).
Atla wrote: January 8th, 2022, 8:44 am If time goes in a circle (which it logically should), we can have a temporally ordered series of events with no beginning or end. No point on a circle is the beginning or the end, yet the circle is finite.
psyreporter wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:38 amCan you explain why time would 'go' in a circle?
Atla wrote: January 21st, 2022, 12:22 pm It's just a possibility that we can't rule out, and the only one that makes sense imo. Maybe time goes in a cirlcle, maybe time is linear, maybe neither. Human thinking is linear, and our apparent movement from past towards future seems linear, so people always assume linear time, but the circle is the more natural shape.
psyreporter wrote: February 6th, 2022, 5:21 amCan you explain in detail the ground upon which you believe that time being of finite substance within a circle shape makes 'sense'?
Atla wrote: February 6th, 2022, 5:34 am Because then there is no need for change, there is only the illusion of change as it should be. The past doesn't have to magically disappear, the future doesn't have to magically appear out of nothing. Past present and future are equally real, and can form a complete, circular chain of events.

In practive this probably means that the universe is an "unchanging perpetuum mobile", a block universe of circular dimensions. So eventually our region of the the universe will start to contract and collapse back into a singularity, which is one and the same singularity at the same point in time as the Big Bang was. It's completely counterintuitive that a distant point in our futurte is a distant point in our past, but the only picture that makes perfect logical sense.
Block universe theory (time slices in a circle shape)
Block universe theory (time slices in a circle shape)
block-universe.jpg (17.05 KiB) Viewed 1105 times
https://bigthink.com/hard-science/a-con ... same-time/

Unresolved in our discussion was my argument that the finite nature of the circle shape would require an explanation, and whether there could be multiple time circles and if so, how that could be explained.
psyreporter wrote: March 3rd, 2022, 3:18 am When time would be of finite substance within a totality (a finite 4D block of Universe substance) it would imply that it should be considered an existent that requires an explanation.

If 'no change' is applicable within a finite amount of time slices of a block universe, one would be obligated to ask the questions: why such time slices, why a certain amount of time slices, why the specific content of time slices (i.e. conscious experience such as writing about the block universe on this forum) that 'never changes'?
--

How would the block universe theory be compatible with the Big Bang theory? If the end of the Universe is predetermined in a circle shaped block, it doesn't seem to make sense that it would require an explosion in a part of the circle.
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Atla »

psyreporter wrote: June 19th, 2022, 9:05 am Yes, my apologies. You mentioned that you view time as going in a circle shape (block Universe theory).
Atla wrote: January 8th, 2022, 8:44 am If time goes in a circle (which it logically should), we can have a temporally ordered series of events with no beginning or end. No point on a circle is the beginning or the end, yet the circle is finite.
psyreporter wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:38 amCan you explain why time would 'go' in a circle?
Atla wrote: January 21st, 2022, 12:22 pm It's just a possibility that we can't rule out, and the only one that makes sense imo. Maybe time goes in a cirlcle, maybe time is linear, maybe neither. Human thinking is linear, and our apparent movement from past towards future seems linear, so people always assume linear time, but the circle is the more natural shape.
psyreporter wrote: February 6th, 2022, 5:21 amCan you explain in detail the ground upon which you believe that time being of finite substance within a circle shape makes 'sense'?
Atla wrote: February 6th, 2022, 5:34 am Because then there is no need for change, there is only the illusion of change as it should be. The past doesn't have to magically disappear, the future doesn't have to magically appear out of nothing. Past present and future are equally real, and can form a complete, circular chain of events.

In practive this probably means that the universe is an "unchanging perpetuum mobile", a block universe of circular dimensions. So eventually our region of the the universe will start to contract and collapse back into a singularity, which is one and the same singularity at the same point in time as the Big Bang was. It's completely counterintuitive that a distant point in our futurte is a distant point in our past, but the only picture that makes perfect logical sense.

block-universe.jpg

https://bigthink.com/hard-science/a-con ... same-time/

Unresolved in our discussion was my argument that the finite nature of the circle shape would require an explanation, and whether there could be multiple time circles and if so, how that could be explained.
psyreporter wrote: March 3rd, 2022, 3:18 am When time would be of finite substance within a totality (a finite 4D block of Universe substance) it would imply that it should be considered an existent that requires an explanation.

If 'no change' is applicable within a finite amount of time slices of a block universe, one would be obligated to ask the questions: why such time slices, why a certain amount of time slices, why the specific content of time slices (i.e. conscious experience such as writing about the block universe on this forum) that 'never changes'?
--

How would the block universe theory be compatible with the Big Bang theory? If the end of the Universe is predetermined in a circle shaped block, it doesn't seem to make sense that it would require an explosion in a part of the circle.
In other words, I imagine the block as hyperspherical. Somewhere in that hypersphere is our Big Bang, right next to a Big Crunch.
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Angelo Cannata »

psyreporter wrote: June 19th, 2022, 7:52 am What do you think of the information about the history of the Big Bang theory? If the theory was originally intended to serve religious purposes, would it not be religious to attempt to maintain the theory against reason?
The intention of anything doesn't matter. What matters in science is how scientific it is. What is against reason in the Big Bang theory?
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

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Angelo Cannata wrote: June 19th, 2022, 11:50 am The intention of anything doesn't matter. What matters in science is how scientific it is. What is against reason in the Big Bang theory?
Did you read the citation of Sabine Hossenfelder?
Sabine Hossenfelder wrote:Sabine Hossenfelder, theoretical physicist specialized in quantum gravity and high energy physics: You will find the three main problems of the Big Bang theory religiously repeated as a motivation for inflation, in lectures and textbooks and popular science pages all over the place.

One of inflation’s cofounders has turned his back on the idea. But practically no one else is following him. Is he right?

I was dismayed to see that the criticism by Steinhardt, Ijas, and Loeb that inflation is not a scientific theory, was dismissed so quickly by a community which has become too comfortable with itself.

There’s no warning sign you when you cross the border between science and blabla-land. But inflationary model building left behind reasonable scientific speculation long ago. I, for one, am glad that at least some people are speaking out about it. And that’s why I approve of the Steinhardt et al. criticism.
Is the inflationary Universe a scientific theory? Not anymore
https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang ... t-anymore/

There are many profound problems with the Big Bang theory - such profound that it would be nonsensical to maintain a belief in its potential validity.

A few citations of an article that expands on the subject:

The "Big Bang" is just religion disguised as science
https://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/bang.php

Problem: THE SINGULARITY
Perhaps the biggest contradiction with the Big Bang Theory is the question of the singularity. The "primordial egg" had to be a super-massive black hole. Therefore no amount of "bang", no matter how big, is going to thrust the universe out into, well, the universe.

Problem: POPULATION II STARS
The existence of Population II stars, devoid of heavy elements, directly contradicts the theory of the Big Bang.

Problem: LOOKING BACK IN TIME
But here is the problem... for this galaxy to lie 13 billion light-years away from Earth only 750 million years after the Big Bang, it would have had to travel 13 billion light years in just 750 million years' time. That requires the galaxy in question to travel more than 17 times faster than the speed of light, a speed limit which according to the Big Bang supporters was in effect from the moment the universe was 3 seconds old.

Problem: ENTROPY
The Big bang violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. That law states that the universe inevitably flows towards maximum entropy. Yet the singularity that produced the Big bang, with all the matter and energy in the universe contained in a single dimensionless point, was already at maximum entropy.

Problem: EXPANDING SPACE THEORY
One theory put forward to get around General Relativity is that it is not the universe which is expanding but space itself, which woould not be bound by the limits of the speed of light. But if space itself is expanding, how would we know? The same spacial expansion that moves distance galazies further away from us would also increase the distance from one end of a ruler to the other. Hence, all our measuring devices would expand at the same rate as space itself, making it impossible to detect such spatial expansion (or for that matter, contraction).

Problem: OBJECTS OLDER THAN BIG BANG
Astronomers keep discovering objects older than the presumed moment of the Big Bang. Rather than see those objects as evidence that undermines the theory of the Big Bang, cosmologists simply push the date of the Big Bang (and the estimated size of the universe) back further.

These are a handful of problems mentioned in the article. There are also many known major problems:
  • The Monopole Problem
  • The Flatness Problem
  • The Horizon Problem
These major problems are described in the article on BigThink.

--

The topic concerns the question: why would Albert Einstein potentially have decided to help promote the Big Bang theory while it is evident that he was a profound critic of the expanding Universe theory, just a year before he joined priest George Lemaître on a tour across the USA to promote the Big Bang theory?
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Angelo Cannata »

I would need to study a lot of physics in order to make my position about the Big Bang theory. But at this point, considering the high competence in physics that the question needs, what does it have to do with philosophy, considering that you have introduced the topic in a philosophical forum?
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

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Well, it involves the difference between a Universe with a begin in time and an infinite Universe. Therefore, in my opinion, investigating the origin of the Big Bang theory is of interest to discover insights, especially considering the apparently questionable nature of the history.
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

Post by Count Lucanor »

psyreporter wrote: June 19th, 2022, 1:05 am I would have to agree that the intro of the OP does not make a strong case and the references provided can merely be considered suggestive. From my personal perspective however, there are many similar incidents that point in the same direction and the story about Albert Einstein is simply a story that raises questions.

You may be right that the moderator of Space.com has acted on his own but I have noticed it in many occasions and while a moderator may be acting on his own personal sacred dogma, it is important to consider that he would need to do so within a certain controlled and supervised environment, which in the case of Space.com were dozens of active participants in the discussion and fellow moderators.

The moderator chose to 'delete' the topic instead of closing the topic which is normally done. It wasn't an incident.
After decades in public forums, dealing with the authority of moderators, which are imperfect humans as anyone else, and as such, can abuse their powers for reasons only found in the intricate mysteries of the human condition, I can easily sympathize with you. I know what the feeling is and how the whole situation resembles a kind of institutionalized, bureaucratic environment, where dissent is rapidly dissolved with apparently impersonal, objective administrative measures. It's like a Kafka novel. But ultimately, there's nothing really as systematic as it may seem.
psyreporter wrote: June 19th, 2022, 1:05 am With regard the story about Albert Einstein. The questions asked seem valid and whether or not it concerns a conspiracy, the questions remain to be answered.

What was his motive?
I don't share your concern and level of suspicion in the Hubble/Einstein issue. Einstein's change of mind can be explained as a gradual process and by different motives, and there's nothing strange about it, only if one wants to force an explanation to fit the narrative of a conspiracy.
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Re: Big Bang theory a religion - Getting Einstein to Say "I Was Wrong"

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Count Lucanor wrote: June 19th, 2022, 9:10 pm After decades in public forums, dealing with the authority of moderators, which are imperfect humans as anyone else, and as such, can abuse their powers for reasons only found in the intricate mysteries of the human condition, I can easily sympathize with you. I know what the feeling is and how the whole situation resembles a kind of institutionalized, bureaucratic environment, where dissent is rapidly dissolved with apparently impersonal, objective administrative measures. It's like a Kafka novel. But ultimately, there's nothing really as systematic as it may seem.
While that may be so, and I certainly didn't intend to suggest a conspiracy, a systematic tendency is something that can be perceived to be the case when sufficient incidents give a mere rise for consideration of such.

The cited incidents are of such a nature that it would justify such a consideration.

Instead of a 'closure' which is normally done, the post (an apparent popular and qualitative discussion with dozens of participants) was 'deleted'. And upon a next - decent written - post about the use of ESP for Cosmology, my account was banned.

I have perceived many similar questionable incidents and it simply caused me to wonder what could be an explanation.

Count Lucanor wrote: June 19th, 2022, 9:10 pm
psyreporter wrote: June 19th, 2022, 1:05 am With regard the story about Albert Einstein. The questions asked seem valid and whether or not it concerns a conspiracy, the questions remain to be answered.

What was his motive?
I don't share your concern and level of suspicion in the Hubble/Einstein issue. Einstein's change of mind can be explained as a gradual process and by different motives, and there's nothing strange about it, only if one wants to force an explanation to fit the narrative of a conspiracy.
What about the additional fact that Albert Einstein's profound critical stance with regard the expanding Universe theory - two years after the discovery by Edwin Hubble - was just a year before he 'suddenly' admitted to priest Lemaître that he was wrong.

Einstein then uses the public argument that he was convinced by 'listening' to a beautiful creation story, and then, which in my opinion is exceptionally questionable in the face of the preceding facts - for example the habitual misspelling of Edwin Hubble's name in a scientific paper that was mysteriously lost and found in Jerusalem half a century later - joins priest Lemaître on a tour across the USA to promote the Big Bang theory.

I do not agree that the above information is suggestive of a conspiracy or that it is justified to argue that the facts - when seen in combination - are not questionable.

The question "what was Einstein's motive to promote the Big Bang theory?" seems valid, relevant, unanswered (I have spent several years on it already) and potentially also important.
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