In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Astro Cat
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

Post by Astro Cat »

psyreporter wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 6:37 am As it appears from the quote of Boriev, I. A. (Russian Academy of Sciences), despite the lack of citations of his paper, tired light theory would seem more plausible from an outsiders perspective since it would provide a natural explanation for what is observed without the requirement for 'magical' (mysterious) aspects such as dark energy and dark matter. Most problems would fall away with tired light theory while inflationary theory depends on many 'absurd' fixes to hold on to the theory (according to some scientists).

Further, the claim that Albert Einstein made claims contrary to sound science for personal motives does not seem to follow from the facts that were presented in my previous citation. For example, Albert Einstein could only be convinced after a priest told him a 'beautiful creation story'.

The facts would make it appear that Albert Einstein attempted to adhere to sound science and considering that he suggested tired light theory as a serious alternative to the expanding Universe theory, two years after the media hype about his conversion into a believer of an expanding Universe during which time he consistently and strongly opposed the expanding Universe theory, indicates that he may have found the tired light theory to be a plausible theory, which - again from an outsiders perspective - is a strong clue considering that Albert Einstein was 'on top of it' while he was driven to the extreme due to a media hype about him that he didn't seem to have agreed with.
I didn't say that tired light wasn't a serious proposal. It was at one time, and scientists do occasionally check it. It's just that with everything that we know now, tired light has massive problems that do not match observations and wouldn't be able to without some sort of massive ad hoc adjustments. As I said, there's a reason it doesn't really make waves in astro or cosmo.
psyreporter wrote:Thank you for the extensive information.

You argue that the Universe is like a balloon and that when looking into one direction one reaches an edge of what one is able to see while space continues beyond it and ultimately reaches the opposite end of the Universe like in a circle.
No, one wouldn't eventually reach the opposite end (unless there is some curvature too small for us to currently detect). The balloon analogy is just an analogy for why any point can look like a center to the point itself; and why what looks like the "edge" to one point can look like the "center" to the point in question. It's not meant to be taken far enough to be compared to the universe's actual shape as an analogy.
psyreporter wrote:What evidence is there for curvature of the Universe?

A recent study indicated that the Universe is flat.

(2022) The Universe is flat
https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/universe-flat/
Indeed, the universe is remarkably flat (I have mentioned this a few times in my main posts above). In fact, this very flatness is evidence for inflation, as I'll eventually post about when I continue the post series. Inflation predicts an extremely flat universe: tired light would actually have a really difficult time accounting for it! This all goes back to the Friedmann equation, I think from Part 2 in this series of posts: it's an equation that has to be balanced so that k=0. Inflation does this no problem: it caused the universe to expand so much that any portion of it will look nearly perfectly flat, as if you zoomed in on a balloon to a microscopic scale (or I guess if you stood on the surface of Earth, according to Flat Earthers :P)

So with inflation it's not surprising to see that k=0. With tired light, it requires some explanation for why k=0 and not some other value.
psyreporter wrote:What about the famous inflation image? Is it invalid?


inflation-edge-universe.jpeg
Depending on what you mean by "valid." It's not to scale (not even a little bit), doens't label its axes (clearly the x-axis is time). The universe is not a conical shape if that's what you're asking. But that's not what the image is meant to convey. The imporant bit is time being the x-axis. The image wants you to walk away from it understanding how differently the universe looked like and what trends it was going through at different points in time.
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

Post by Astro Cat »

I'm about to go to bed so I tried googling an image that might help psyreporter

Image

First I want to be clear this image is somewhat garbled and confused about what it's trying to say, so don't take anything away from this image other than what I say about it. (We're going to ignore everything that is not on the plane on the left side.)

If you imagine we are one of the white dots with a circle around it on the left side, the circle is "the visible universe." Anything beyond the circle is further than we will ever be able to see because light has never and will never have time to reach us from that far away. Furthermore, we would encounter the surface of last scattering before we're able to see anything that far.

To us it seems like we are the center of the universe.

However there might be an observer in the OTHER white dot, with their own "visible universe." They, too, can't see past the white line because when they look out far enough, all they see is the surface of last scattering as well.

We will never see them, they will never see us. We're both beyond each others' visible universe.

Now imagine that there's a galaxy at the edge of our visible universe. To do this we have to imagine putting a dot there on this image, and drawing the same-sized circle around it.

To us, they look like they're at the "edge of the universe." But to them, they see US as being at the "edge of the universe."

What you have to remember is that looking out is looking back. It's not that the surface of last scattering is "out there" somewhere: it was once literally everywhere, including here. We're just looking out far enough to see it as it was in the past when we look out far enough. So every dot, anywhere, will always have the same sized "circle" around it that is the farthest they can ever see. Anything beyond their circle is outside of their visible universe. Everyone, everywhere, will always see the surface of last scattering at the same distance from where they look from. We are behind a surface of last scattering to some observer somewhere else.

This is not an easy thing to understand. I can try to clarify more tomorrow if needed.
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Astro Cat wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 7:52 am No, one wouldn't eventually reach the opposite end (unless there is some curvature too small for us to currently detect).
I'd like to interject here. Let's suppose that we could pick any direction in spacetime, and follow that direction all the way, always going dead straight, and in the end we would end up right where and when we started.

Maybe I misundertood, but it seems to me that astrophysicists almost always think that, for the above to be possible, a universe with curvature would be necessary.

I consider that to be such a weird confusion of everyday linear 3-dimensional thinking. A perfectly flat universe could also produce the above, I think it's the most likely possibility that we live in such a universe.
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Atla wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 2:04 pm
Astro Cat wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 7:52 am No, one wouldn't eventually reach the opposite end (unless there is some curvature too small for us to currently detect).
I'd like to interject here. Let's suppose that we could pick any direction in spacetime, and follow that direction all the way, always going dead straight, and in the end we would end up right where and when we started.

Maybe I misundertood, but it seems to me that astrophysicists almost always think that, for the above to be possible, a universe with curvature would be necessary.

I consider that to be such a weird confusion of everyday linear 3-dimensional thinking. A perfectly flat universe could also produce the above, I think it's the most likely possibility that we live in such a universe.
The only way I can think of to have a closed, spatially flat universe is with hyperspatial curvature or something else that's truly exotic. What are you proposing?
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

Post by Atla »

Astro Cat wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 10:22 pm
Atla wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 2:04 pm
Astro Cat wrote: June 22nd, 2022, 7:52 am No, one wouldn't eventually reach the opposite end (unless there is some curvature too small for us to currently detect).
I'd like to interject here. Let's suppose that we could pick any direction in spacetime, and follow that direction all the way, always going dead straight, and in the end we would end up right where and when we started.

Maybe I misundertood, but it seems to me that astrophysicists almost always think that, for the above to be possible, a universe with curvature would be necessary.

I consider that to be such a weird confusion of everyday linear 3-dimensional thinking. A perfectly flat universe could also produce the above, I think it's the most likely possibility that we live in such a universe.
The only way I can think of to have a closed, spatially flat universe is with hyperspatial curvature or something else that's truly exotic. What are you proposing?
Not sure if I can describe it. I think we can only imagine a closed universe visually as a curved object, but that's because of our everyday 3 dimensional thinking.

For example let's take a closed 1-dimensional universe, which is a circle or an ellipse or some other shape that goes around. Other than the inherent closedness, it doesn't actually have an additional shape, so for example it's not a circle or an ellipse. We applied the circular or elliptical shapes as a necessary part of our thinking, because we are limited to everyday 3 dimenional thinking. But that shape doesn't actually exist, on the 1-dimensional universe there is only backwards and forwards, because it's 1-dimensional. The only thing inherent to it is that it's closed.

I extrapolate our universe to be the same, just with 4 dimensions. It has no higher dimensional shape, but it's closed.

IF it has more than 4 dimensions, with higher dimensional curvatures, then it's still closed in all dimensions, and shapeless in the highest dimensions.

Open universes seem illogical, curved universes seem illogical. Personally I continue to believe in some variation of the Big Crunch, when it comes to our observable universe which may or may not be just a small part of the total universe. So I'm the loathsome position of having to predict that in the very distant future, the expansion will reverse due to some causes that are imperceptible right now. I wondered if even an eternally universe could be closed somehow but I don't see it.

But that's just my guess, and your presentation was awesome, yes extrapolating from the current state of the universe we are headed for eternal expansion. I really can'T make logical sense of eternal expansion but maybe I'm bad at logic, or the universe isn't logical (meh).
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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A consequence of Inflation Theory is the following:

"5 billion years from now, all of the galaxies beyond the Milky Way, and also the CMBR, will be receding from us faster than the speed of light and will become undetectable.

Lawrence Krauss (famous American theoretical physicist and cosmologist) once said that, for this reason, we are living in a very special time in the history of the universe, a time when we can still observe the CMBR and arrive at correct conclusions about the nature of the universe.
"

https://www.gregschool.org/cosmology/20 ... scattering

Don't you find this odd?

The 🌞 Sun is currently 4.5 billion years old.

Is the idea of last scattering solely based on the Doppler interpretation of redshift? If so, can it be said that the idea is solely intended to hold on to the Big Bang theory and that it uses illusory Dark Energy and Dark Matter to do so?
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Atla wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 12:00 am Not sure if I can describe it. I think we can only imagine a closed universe visually as a curved object, but that's because of our everyday 3 dimensional thinking.

For example let's take a closed 1-dimensional universe, which is a circle or an ellipse or some other shape that goes around. Other than the inherent closedness, it doesn't actually have an additional shape, so for example it's not a circle or an ellipse. We applied the circular or elliptical shapes as a necessary part of our thinking, because we are limited to everyday 3 dimenional thinking. But that shape doesn't actually exist, on the 1-dimensional universe there is only backwards and forwards, because it's 1-dimensional. The only thing inherent to it is that it's closed.

I extrapolate our universe to be the same, just with 4 dimensions. It has no higher dimensional shape, but it's closed.

IF it has more than 4 dimensions, with higher dimensional curvatures, then it's still closed in all dimensions, and shapeless in the highest dimensions.

Open universes seem illogical, curved universes seem illogical. Personally I continue to believe in some variation of the Big Crunch, when it comes to our observable universe which may or may not be just a small part of the total universe. So I'm the loathsome position of having to predict that in the very distant future, the expansion will reverse due to some causes that are imperceptible right now. I wondered if even an eternally universe could be closed somehow but I don't see it.

But that's just my guess, and your presentation was awesome, yes extrapolating from the current state of the universe we are headed for eternal expansion. I really can'T make logical sense of eternal expansion but maybe I'm bad at logic, or the universe isn't logical (meh).
In topological example of the closed line, either the line has curvature, or locality is false (e.g., there is a portal for lack of a better term at x = 0 on the line and at x = 100 on the line if it ranges from 0 <= x <= 100).

So, it's as I said in these cases: either there's hyperspatial curvature (the line curves hyperspatially from the 1D perspective) or something truly exotic (portals at either side).

A 3-dimensional universe could ostensibly wrap around if it has borders that are portals. That's just be really exotic and would really require an explanation. Also if I recall, there was a thought experiment involving portals of this nature, something to do with time travel, and something violated something somewhere... now I wish I could remember it. Someone related to Hawking, or it might have been Hawking. But they imagined a 1mx1mx1m box where the faces were portals to their opposing sides and if I recall, something about it broke physics. I don't remember what. I'm also not having a good brain night tonight because I'm slogging through a lot of galaxy catalogs and it's mind numbing. I can try to find this so I can talk about it better either before I get off work or tomorrow.

Also, you might check out Penrose's latest book. If I recall correctly, he's still looking into cyclical models that don't have the problems of all the ones that have been ruled out.
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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psyreporter wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 2:48 am A consequence of Inflation Theory is the following:

"5 billion years from now, all of the galaxies beyond the Milky Way, and also the CMBR, will be receding from us faster than the speed of light and will become undetectable.

Lawrence Krauss (famous American theoretical physicist and cosmologist) once said that, for this reason, we are living in a very special time in the history of the universe, a time when we can still observe the CMBR and arrive at correct conclusions about the nature of the universe.
"

https://www.gregschool.org/cosmology/20 ... scattering

Don't you find this odd?
This is correct, I don't know about odd. Interesting? Sad, in a way maybe for future observers? Many galaxies have already receded beyond the cosmic horizon. That will continue as the expansion continues (and accelerates).
psyreporter wrote:The 🌞 Sun is currently 4.5 billion years old.

Is the idea of last scattering solely based on the Doppler interpretation of redshift? If so, can it be said that the idea is solely intended to hold on to the Big Bang theory and that it uses illusory Dark Energy and Dark Matter to do so?
A surface of last scattering only appears if the universe is expanding (because it is looking at the universe when it was so compact and hot that it was opaque to photons). So actually, a tired light theory would need to explain why there is a surface of last scattering. We effectively take pictures of it with COBE, WMAP, and Planck. Here's Planck:

Image

The photons from the surface of last scattering are observed as the CMB today, cooled all the way down to ~2.7 K.
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Angular diameter turnaround is also something that we observe that would be really hard (impossible?) for tired light to explain, and it's something we directly observe. Funnily enough the best visual way to represent/show this concept I know of comes from an xkcd comic:

Image
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Angular diameter turnaround, as it turns out, is also a good test of different cosmological models. EdS in this image represents Einstein-deSitter models (matter-only universe). The lambda CDM model means dark energy/dark matter (lambda = dark energy, CDM = cold dark matter).

Image
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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(I really need an edit function for when I want to add something, lol).

Data doesn't lie. There's a reason lambda-CDM (or Benchmark, as it's also called) model is the prevailing consensus. The data strongly favors it. In one case, which I'll eventually get to when I continue my posting series, the data so closely matched the theoretical curve that you have to inflate the error bars on all the data points 400 times for the error bars to even be visible (meaning it was that close of a fit to the theoretical curve from the model). In other words, with the power spectrum at least, the Benchmark model is one of the most successful theory-to-outcome-of-experiment fits in the history of science. That doesn't happen if your model is as wildly wrong as Tired Light would suggest.
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Aaaaaand one more time here, on the data doesn't lie theme: did you know that lambda (dark energy) was considered something of a joke before the 90's? This is what scientists do, they plot the predictions of models that they don't even think mean anything. Nobody seriously thinks we live in an EdS universe, but scientists will check it on plots of data anyway.

This is exactly what happened in the 90's. Someone was plotting very high redshift supernovae on a plot that just happened to have a lambda term. They didn't in a million years expect any of the data to fall along that curve. But guess what? The data did. The scientists in the 90's were shocked.

One of my professors used to say that back in his day when he was taking cosmology courses, lambda was only touched on for a day or two because "nobody really needed to know about it," it was just an oddity, a leftover from Einstein that probably meant nothing. He said something like, "They would teach us about it and say 'by the way, you should know about this thing, it probably doesn't exist so we're not going to spend a long time on it.'" But that's before they were able to actually test it.

It's not that scientists sat around and said "let's make up something absurd today." It's that scientists were just doing their due diligence and were shocked to find that the actual data, the data that doesn't lie, supported a model that they were not betting on it supporting. That's how science works when it's done right.
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

Post by SteveKlinko »

Astro Cat wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 4:25 am
Very good review of Cosmology. I didn't know a lot of the details that you have shown so far, so I have enjoyed that.

I had always thought that I understood the Curved nature of Space that Cosmologists had been expecting and I was really kind of disappointed when they kept measuring a Flat Universe. I had always thought that a Flat Universe meant an Infinite Universe. But yet I have learned to reject any situations where Infinity shows up in an analysis. An Infinite Universe is simply Absurd so a Flat Universe is also Absurd. I don't believe in Infinities with Physical things. I'm still rooting for a Curved Universe when the measurements get more refined.

But I have a basic question related to the Density of Dark Energy not scaling. Did I miss the reason for Dark Energy not scaling? It seems that if it doesn't scale then as the scale changes to larger and larger scales that more and more Dark Energy must be added to the equation to keep the density constant. Where have I gone wrong with this?
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Astro Cat wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 3:44 am In topological example of the closed line, either the line has curvature, or locality is false (e.g., there is a portal for lack of a better term at x = 0 on the line and at x = 100 on the line if it ranges from 0 <= x <= 100).

So, it's as I said in these cases: either there's hyperspatial curvature (the line curves hyperspatially from the 1D perspective) or something truly exotic (portals at either side).
I think that's the same mistake I mentioned earlier. Locality as imagined through everyday linear 3-dimensional thinking doesn't mean that locality is false. No need for portals.
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Re: In Defense of Inflationary Cosmology

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Astro Cat wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 3:44 am Also, you might check out Penrose's latest book. If I recall correctly, he's still looking into cyclical models that don't have the problems of all the ones that have been ruled out.
Maybe I will, I'm not really interested in something as inherently illogical as a cyclical universe, there should only be one "cycle". But the post-BB marks left from the pre-BB era could more or less be the same, if there are any.
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