The 'atom' is a primitive and outmoded concept

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Gertie
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Re: The 'atom' is a primitive and outmoded concept

Post by Gertie »

ernestm wrote: March 5th, 2023, 11:55 am
Gertie wrote: March 4th, 2023, 6:08 pm
It seems pretty clear from modern philosophy that words merely refer to states and events with clusters of properties. 'Objects,' per se, are only one of these properties. Objects and atoms don't really exist in physical reality: they are properties we assign to observations in our attempt to make sense of them, and that is all.
I think it would be more appropriate to say, in this context, words refer to observations and their explanations.

One explanation being that particular objects exist and have particular properties which result in particular observations of objects, states and events.

Another explanation would be only properties which are particular states and events exist, which we observe and explain in terms of objects with properties, as above. Which invites the question what are these states and properties of?
Wrom W.s point of view, states and events ARE observations, and there's no need to qualify them further, because the only states and events that exist are the ones we observe.
OK.
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Sy Borg
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Re: The 'atom' is a primitive and outmoded concept

Post by Sy Borg »

ernestm wrote: March 5th, 2023, 11:52 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 4th, 2023, 7:40 pm I don't understand the objection to the idea of atoms. Ernest, do you have thoughts on the "ground zero" of physical reality, if not atoms and subatomic particles?

The standard model and periodic table have clearly been successful in a practical sense, noting that each is like a simple "two dimensional" summary of known reality. Behind the standard model lie various 'colours', spins, charges and whatnot and each element in the periodic table has multiple isotopes, with cesium and xenon each having 36 isotopes.
Ptolemy's model also successfully predicted the position of stars in the sky, but when I raised that, Borg, you said it was obviously wrong and how stupid I was. However much you could substantiate the standard model's use of particles, or the periodic table's usefulness, you already invalidated your own argument with regard to using archaic concepts for physics.

So there is no way I can take anything you argue seriously any more.
Geez, where did that come from?? You are getting me confused with someone else.

I do not call anyone "stupid" so that's simply wrong. It may help to be sure you know you are talking to, before unloading on them. Or better still, show some respect for the forum and avoid such insulting behaviour.

I have long been aware that Ptolemy's models predicted the travel of the known planets, and so I would never have criticised that observation.

If a model is to be replaced, ideally there will be a viable alternative that yields accurate results in the areas where current theories break down.
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Consul
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Re: The 'atom' is a primitive and outmoded concept

Post by Consul »

By the way, there is a relevant distinction between atoms in the physical&chemical sense and atoms in the mereological sense (the latter of which corresponds to the etymological meaning of "atomos" = "indivisible"): Mereological atoms are compositionally simple by lacking proper parts; so physical atoms aren't mereological atoms, because they do have proper parts. Note that mereological atoms needn't be zero-dimensional, because they can be as large as the whole world. More precisely, a three-dimensional mereological atom can have spatial parts and temporal parts, but it cannot have any substantial parts conceived as discrete building blocks that are ontologically independent of and prior to the wholes they compose, such that they are freely recombinable with other substantial parts.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Tegularius
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Re: The 'atom' is a primitive and outmoded concept

Post by Tegularius »

The classical model of the atom remains thoroughly useful. There is no point in invoking the quantum model when explaining how two atoms of hydrogen combine with one atom of oxygen to form water. The classical model along with the quantum model - and anything below that if ever gets discovered - all exist in their separate domains with their own nomenclature and applicability. In any event, whatever the model, they all operate in various degrees of abstractions based on whatever level is being considered.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Alan Masterman
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Re: The 'atom' is a primitive and outmoded concept

Post by Alan Masterman »

One of the most entertaining threads I've come across in a long time. Go for it, Ernestm! Nil Carborundum - Don't let the bastards grind you down!
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Sy Borg
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Re: The 'atom' is a primitive and outmoded concept

Post by Sy Borg »

Yeah great. Insult people for no reason based on mistaken identity and then not admit the error or apologise. Go for it! Great philosophy? I think not.

If atoms are a primitive concept, what is the alternative? What I see here are ad hominem attacks, either implied or direct, and criticisms of educational models that probably are outmoded - but the models have been deliberately simplified to be usable for students.

It's like defining planets. There's not actually eight planets, there's hundreds. However, the old model was kept simple for educational purposes. There is always the risk of swamping students with dizzying complexity, so the old simple models are added to rather than replaced. Naturally, those who don't work in the field will often have a wrongful idea about the phenomena based on the oversimplifications, mistaking the map for the territory, but most experts know better (and their interest wasn't dampened by information overload too early).

Whatever, I like biology more than chemistry and physics. Anyone wanting to test their physics-based ideas would ideally post them to physics forums, to an audience who more intimately know the subject matter. I'd be interested to see the responses if this was posted to a physics forum. It would be entertaining, if nothing else.

My own simple understanding is that an atom consists of three extremely small and dense quarks zipping around each other at something like light speed within an extremely small volume, held in by the gluons of the strong nuclear force, and the whole edifice has a positive charge. Around this hyper-dense nucleus is a field of negatively charged electrons. These entities join together in different ways, making up molecules.

Still, I just think of them all as tiny energetic dimples in the fabric of reality with variant qualities but, as I say, I'm not a physicist.
Alan Masterman
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Re: The 'atom' is a primitive and outmoded concept

Post by Alan Masterman »

After reading my opinion of quantum physics, someone asked me what I thought of atoms.

I agree with you, there are far too many atoms. The flippin' government ought to do something.
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