Holistic As Apposed To Reductionist Science

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boagie
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Post by boagie »

Hi Izzy,

It is not a matter of how useful the concept is or is not, it simply gives us, in comdination with the reductionist approach, a better understanding of reality in general. That which is consider in isolation is NOT. Just the fact that there is no such thing as a closed system opens new avenues of thought in my philosophy. The understanding of holistic thinking/general systems theory should influence all aspects of a persons life. It gives us a new understanding of the world and our relation to it, it does constitute, a new worldview.








"A "closed system" can be defined as a system of which the internal properties in investigative question can not be substantively modified through existing external influence.
In reality this is impossible.
As such, a "closed system" is a fictional, idealized state of isolation, though very useful in certain examinations."
Last edited by boagie on February 7th, 2010, 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

Boagie is right in principle but the problem is that academic disciplines are expanding like the universe, becoming more complex but further apart from each other. This fact is seen in physics where few amateurs can understand physics, whereas decades ago a secondary school child could get the basics quite adequately, but now physics has advanced and diversified far beyond those basics. There are some project-based studies which seek to be interdisciplinary and the more of those the better.Also there are moves to include philosophy and history of science in undergraduate science courses, but the old enemies of a good curriculum, funding and time, stand in the way.
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boagie
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Post by boagie »

"MIND WALK."
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9308808776#






Hi Belinda,

Yes the divisions between various fields and the process of reinventing the wheel over and over again in these unconnected fields was a majory focus of general systems theory. The commonality of systems often in quiet differing fields of concern showed the fragmentation that the likes of David Bohm taked about in his, "Wholeness And The Implicate Order." This general systems theory was indeed a unifying enterprise, and quite sucessful, but the reality is that complexity is a limitation of the mind not a property the a matter itself. General systems theory has revolutinized many many displines across the board and is no doubt a new world view that might help us live more intelligently in our world. Here is a movie which might serve as a better introduction to the process of understanding holistic thinking/general systems theory.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9308808776#

It is called, "Mind Walk." enjoy!



I lifted this from another site I hope it is alright if credit is given.


pallidin

Jul24-06, 03:50 PM

A "closed system" can be defined as a system of which the internal properties in investigative question can not be substantively modified through existing external influence.
In reality this is impossible.
As such, a "closed system" is a fictional, idealized state of isolation, though very useful in certain examinations.
Last edited by boagie on February 6th, 2010, 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

Boagie,thanks for the film 'Mind Walk'. When Sonya said to her daughter, 'let's go home' did she mean 'let's join Jack's political staff? I hope so. I agreed with the poet character that changing the world is ' an inside job'. Dont you think that Sonya in her monastic existence would do more good if she engaged in the dirty old world? The name Sonya, I understand is translated as 'Wisdom'.
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boagie
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Post by boagie »

Hi Belinda,

I am glad you enjoyed it, I certainly did when someone give me the link. I must have watched it twenty times or more it was just so intriguing, the thought of a whole new perspective or worldview. I believe that was the intent to infer by the statement "Lets go home", that she would now engage the world once more to affect change. It is an inside job, yes I agree as well, the information and/or enlightenment needs a little time to work its magic, thus Soya's monastic existence, an integral process somehow at work--what you got cooking comes to mind--lol!! Interesting I did not know the meaning of her name, very fitting, she certainly is the sage in this movie.
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Post by Belinda »

It is an inside job, yes I agree as well, the information and/or enlightenment needs a little time to work its magic
Yes, wisdom is the leaven in the bread. It's the salt without the actual presence of which the whole cannot be salted.

I am interested in religion in this respect. But as you and I know, religions are each and all relatively tainted by the clockwork world. Some of them are integral to the clockwork world as theocracies and would-be theocracies.Sometimes some religion is taken on by politicians as running mate.

I have faith in the power of individuals to make a difference. It's hard to see Obama being pressed by the clockwork right, but that's the way of the world. Life was not easy for Jesus either.

I commend the film Mind Walk even although its pretty well a feature length film. Mind Walk addresses science( history of , interpretation of , and frontiers of science) , politics, and metaphysics.
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boagie
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Post by boagie »

Belinda,

I have tried to introduce it to some of my religious friends without to much of a reaction, letting them know as well about the advances of general systems theory among the various sciences and business fields. I to have been interested in religion,more properly mythology.
Joseph Campbell once said that one defination of mythology is that it is the other man/women's religion.

My religious friends I am afraid are not really ideas people, in fact with some of them I sense a real fear of new knowledge, as if the possiablity of a new orgin of species is the second shoe about to fall upon them. Obama I truely think has got it, he most definately is operating from a different understanding or worldview. American it seems is steering away from becoming a theocracy.

I would say your summaton on the movie is a good one, yes it covers all these area's and is made I believe under an assumption that individuals can make a difference in the world.

There really is a minority of the population that do like ideas, a movie devoid of sex and violence is a hard sell to the population at large.
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Post by Belinda »

There really is a minority of the population that do like ideas, a movie devoid of sex and violence is a hard sell to the population at large.
(Boagie)
Being able to make ideas sexy is a great enterprise. It's an unfortunate fact that the more popular an idea is, the more likely it is to be framed in sensational terms. We see that this has happened to religions where the more the religion is popular that more it is sensationalised with ideas like 'the Rapture', personal rewards in Heaven after death, the torture of Jesus, facile emotionalism, or with popular violence as in islamism.

True, primary and secondary education in developed countries is now such that children are being taught critical thinking in schools where education is at its best.
I am also impressed by the film Avatar which although its message is simply about the evils of colonisation, it is easy enough to understand. The technology and beauty of the effects may be the first impression but the message is in the background of the story all the time, so it should get through. I think that sci fi(fantasy also) is a great medium for furthering ideas.
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boagie
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Post by boagie »

Belinda,

Interesting insight Belinda, it probable would be more effective in getting to a wider audience if a movie with a powerful message did interweave said message with the more powerful passions of humanity. That new Darwin movie got some pretty bad reviews it was said to be a sleeper by some. With this type of thing a producer cannot afford to be a purest, the desire to remain entirely factual, true to events or historically correct has not much box office appeal.

Men must be taught as if you taught them not, and things unknown proposed as things forgot.
Alexander Pope
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wanabe
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Post by wanabe »

How does one do calculations is systems theory? Do wee have a method?

My guess would be it would be a series of equating calculus functions that are almost entirely variables, that only a select few individuals can comprehend even partially.

Should society demand of them that they explain what these things mean?

Would this not be the only-practical way in which the theory can be advanced, if more people know about it making headway is more likely.
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
boagie
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Post by boagie »

Hi Wanabe,

Actually it is not all mathamatics at least not until you get into it deeply. The concepts that are introduced though change your world outlook, your worldview, to me just knowing that there is nothing that is a closed system is a spiritual insight. Which means really that nothing is separate its all one continuum.

"A "closed system" can be defined as a system of which the internal properties in investigative question can not be substantively modified through existing external influence. In reality this is impossible.
As such, a "closed system" is a fictional, idealized state of isolation, though very useful in certain examinations."



Here is a link to some great reading on the subject, actually general systems theory and holistic thinking are one and the same thing,

http://www.newciv.org/ISSS_Primer/seminar.html



The link below is of a movie called, "Mind Walk." it is quite lengthly and someone new to the ideas and concepts might have to struggle with the content some, needing to watch it several times to fully grasped its import. I hope you enjoy it! It starts real slow so, you know, it ain't a James Bond movie.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... l=en&emb=1#



Here is some intro material quite good, but, there are a great many places to learn from on the net, just google general systems theory and/or holistic thinking or systems science and/or cybernetics, cybernetics is often thought of now as part of general systems theory but historically it developed kind of on its own. Its real interesting stuff if not chanllenging, enjoy!!

http://www.lindaboothsweeney.net/thinking
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wanabe
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Post by wanabe »

I watched the movie, nice, it was like if Socrates/plato had a video camera. I want to know the mathematics behind it because I understand it quite deeply, I just know it by another name, or lack there of. As I said before, I dare not confine it to a name. I learned about 'systems theory' fist hand, nature taught me as I stayed in her house. Maybe I should just go back.

The 'whole idea' is what every hippie on drugs rambles on incoherently about, 'scary' that science and math are going there. It would suck for all the conservatives if the hippies were right(they are).

The only book I found on the mathematics behind it Mathematical Systems Theory is not down-loadable.

Here is the google books result:
http://books.google.com/books?id=txYNxr ... q=&f=false

From what I have looked at its literally written in calculus(greek) as I said of course there are a few blurbs here and there in English. looks like it will be about a year before I be-able to read it. It's quite apparent however, from the opening paragraphs of the book, that the same reductionist approach is taking its hold inside systems theory.

Being that the bulk of information is in a language we can't read where does that leave us?
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
boagie
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Post by boagie »

Wanabe,

Sorry, I don't know where I got the idea you were not familar with these concepts.



"The systems view looks at the world in terms of relationships and integration. Systems are integrated wholes whose properties cannot be reduced to those of smaller units. Instead of concentrating on basic building blocks or basic substances, the systems approach emphasizes basic principles of organization. Every organism- from the smallest bacterium through the wide range or plants and animals to humans is an integrated whole and thus a living system. ...But systems are not confined to individual organisms and their parts. The same aspects of wholeness are exhibited by social systems- such as an anthill, a beehive, or a human family- and by ecosystems that consist of a variety of organisms and inanimate matter in mutual interaction. What is preserved in a wilderness area is not individual trees or organisms but a complex web of relationships between them.

All these natural systems are wholes whose specfic structures arise from the interactions and interdependence of their parts. The activity of systems involves a process known as transaction- the simultaneous and mutually interdependent interaction between multiple components."

- Fritjof Capra
The Turning Point



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_MDRI-Q76o
Fritjof Capra, The Systems View of Life
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wanabe
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Post by wanabe »

boagie,
You have cited your references well, but what is your summation of "systems theory"?

My take is that "systems theory" will remain separate from science. Seeing that unless science finds physical links there is no evidence. Systems theory is not so much science, as it is a way of observing(why I called it art before). It could certainly help sciences observations but, not sciences conclusions, they must be physically based(though indirectly it will help). If science claims to use systems theory it will be doing so from a less separate perspective, but separate still. The calculations could not be contained to a paper, or even the entire internet, as the internet is a system; connected still to others.

Systems theory is unique in that one could observe from any perspective and follow the links to any destination(other systems). That destination however would not ever be final, nor could it at any point be known where exactly it resides.......
Secret To Eternal Life: Live Life To The Fullest, Help All Others To Do So.Meaning of Life Is Choice. Increase choice through direct perception. Golden rule+universality principal+Promote benefits-harm+logical consistency=morality.BeTheChange.
boagie
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Post by boagie »

Hi Wanabe,

You seem to have an unusual impression as to what constitutes the new science, for science is indeed what it is. It is not only a new science but I believe gives us through its methods a whole new worldview, a different understanding of the world around us. There is a saying in systems theory, that 1+1=3 the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I am certainly no expert but that is one of the reasons for starting this thread, general system theory has revolutionized the sciences as well as industry but, it still is not yet a household word. I have tried to introduce it to some friends and a member of my own family but there seems an unwillingness to venture into something new. If you are familiar with the movie "Mind Walk", you should realize that this is the shift in consciousness that they are talking about, this is the way of thinking which is vital to the continued survival of our species.

It has been said, and it is inferred through the movie Mind Walk, that we have been programmed by the science of reductionism. This is not a programming simply of scientist or people who work in the field of science it is of the whole culture. As the nature of reductionist science is fractured process so to is the thinking it conditions, and the way you think conditions your reality. Scientific reductionism is not to be discarded it has been and continues to be a most helpful method, but, it is limited in its scope to an unfortunate degree. Through this shift in consciousness to general systems theory/holistic thinking it is hoped that the world culture can begin to be programmed by this new way of seeing nature and reality, if so it would a saner world and evolutionary development in consciousness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory
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