Reasons Behind the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection

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Faustus5
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Joined: May 8th, 2020, 10:08 am

Re: Reasons Behind the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection

Post by Faustus5 »

Steve3007 wrote: September 14th, 2021, 4:22 amSince Sculptor is doing his usual thing I'll chip in if you like.
Yeah, refusal to engage like a grown up adult is kind of the hallmark of someone who is essentially incompetent at doing philosophy. I’ll be ignoring that clown going forward.

(Sidenote: it’s unintentionally hilarious that he clutched his pearls over the risk that language indicating purpose or intent in nature would encourage “god botherers” when he cites a book in this thread that was endorsed by the world’s leading creationist. You can’t make this stuff up!)
Steve3007 wrote: September 14th, 2021, 4:22 amI'd say that the only way we can meaningfully define intention/purpose is to, so to speak, point to something and say "That thing has intention/purpose. Look at what it does." That's what we do. We define intention/purpose as being what humans have. If we then look for evidence of it in things that weren't made/arranged/started by humans then we look for parallels with things that were made/arranged/started by humans. Hence arguments about watchmakers and such like.
That is one way of putting it. Basically, I think having certain kinds of intentions or purposes means nothing more than a predisposition for behavior/activity that satisfies certain social norms for that particular intention or purpose. What’s inside causing the behavior is secondary at best.

If we’re asking a question such as “Why does this species of bird always lay four eggs?” or “Why does this species of cicada always stay in hibernation for year counts that are prime numbers?”, a description of the physical processes causing the eggs to be laid or the insect to awaken isn’t going to be answering the question we had in mind. Our actual question has to do with the purpose for these behaviors, and this necessarily and harmlessly involves a level of teleology, which will direct us to pay attention to different features of the organism and its interactions with the environment than we’d be looking at if our interests were in simply noting the physical processes at play.

We just have to be prepared to find out that what we’re observing has no “purpose”, confers no particular benefit, and is just an accidental feature.
Buzzard3
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Favorite Philosopher: Catdinal Robert Sarah
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Re:

Post by Buzzard3 »

Alun wrote: October 17th, 2009, 11:07 pmWhat made Darwin's theory scientifically useful is that it could be tested in an experimental setting. As I made my case above, I showed that we have proven evolution by natural selection occurs in bacteria and eukaryotes. Once this has been done, it makes plenty of sense to extrapolate the experimental case to historical cases where the same results, e.g. species divergence, came about under similar conditions, e.g. reproductive pressure.

In fact even Darwin attempted this in part (although obviously not to the mechanistic level of genetics). That's what his birds were all about; showing how it happens in a controlled environment, and then extrapolating to explain history.
... except there is not a scrap of empirical evidence that suggests such extrapolations are realistic. Thousands of years of animal and plant breeding by humans suggests that species
are bound by genetic limitations. All that has been observed are variations within species. Dogs breeders, for example, have tried every trick imaginable in their quest to produce some novel breed or new anatomical feature, but keep running into genetic brick walls. These breeders have learnt that pushing the genetic envelope results in feeble, unfit dogs - that is devolution, not evolution. So how can the evolution of new species proceed when such genetic barriers exist? Your "extrapolating to explain history" might sound good in theory, but it ignores reality.


Furthermore, there is no way to put your extrapolation claim to the test, so all it is is a story. Neither can anyone empirically demonstrate that evolution by natural selection of beneficial mutations is responsible for the history of life on earth. More stories.

Darwinian evolution is the best scientific explanation for the history of life on earth ... but it is nevetheless a very poor explanation, if you ask me.
ernestm
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Re: Reasons Behind the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection

Post by ernestm »

Faustus5 wrote: September 14th, 2021, 3:02 pm We just have to be prepared to find out that what we’re observing has no “purpose”, confers no particular benefit, and is just an accidental feature.
It amazes me how often intelligent people reach this conclusion. The most that the theory of evolution can provide is a descriptive and predictive model. And that's all it is.

As to why it exists, it confounds me that intelligent people, who use tools, ignroe that evolution could be a tool by an intelligent designer. That doesn't say anything about what such an intelligent designer might intend, or how much such a being cares about our existence, or whether such a being still influences things by genetic mutations or whatever.

Beyond scientific description and prediction, the theory of evolution can do no more than tell us that a force does exist to shape the future. Whether it is an intended destiny or not cannot be determined by rational process, it is only a matter of chosen belief.
Raymond
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Re: Reasons Behind the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection

Post by Raymond »

Rumor: The central dogma in molecular biology
Fact: True, it's a dogma. Never been generally proven
ernestm
Posts: 433
Joined: March 5th, 2018, 4:27 am

Re:

Post by ernestm »

Juice wrote: October 15th, 2009, 4:32 pm First let us provide a specific definition to the theory of "Natural Selection" before trying to apply it to a fossil record or confusing it with what is known about the process of genetic mutability and transference.

Charles Darwin is the originator of the theory of natural selection which has its premise based on aspects of animal husbandry were animals of the same species are bred in order to produce more desirable and advantageous traits. Horses, for instance, would be bred for specific utility: race horses for racing, pack horses for carrying and plow horses for plowing. By this example we must understand that Darwin's original theory, based on the primitive observations at the time has transformed from his original concept into the completely different definition of today. Before providing criticisms or rebuttals to the overall theory we must understand what the difference is between the classic and the modern representations of natural selection and the reasons for that metamorphosis.

Charles Lyell laid the groundwork for Darwin's theory through his observations of geology and his theory of "uniformatarianism" which fundamentally stated that the earth is very old and transformed by current observable phenomenon, volcanoes and earthquakes. So Darwin's theory had to fit with that concept of a very old earth.

We have to understand that Darwin, although he provides limited observations for his theory, was very much motivated by his own reasoning and the works and observations of others in his day. I mention this so that we can understand that Darwin really did not have any real empirical evidence for his theory and that it is basically a thought exercise for him.

In reality it can be argued that Darwin actually got the impetus to publish his seminal work "Origin of Species" as a result of reading a paper written by naturalist Alfred Russel Wallace. Not to give credit to Russel, but only to invite inquiry into the evolution of evolution theory.

The four main parts of Darwin's theory;

1. Organisms have changed over time, and the ones living today are different from those that lived in the past. Furthermore, many organisms that once lived are now extinct. The world is not constant, but changing. The fossil record provided ample evidence for this view.
2. All organisms are derived from common ancestors by a process of branching. Over time, populations split into different species, which are related because they are descended from a common ancestor. Thus, if one goes far enough back in time, any pair of organisms has a common ancestor. This explained the similarities of organisms that were classified together -- they were similar because of shared traits inherited from their common ancestor. It also explained why similar species tended to occur in the same geographic region.
3. Change is gradual and slow, taking place over a long time. This was supported by the fossil record, and was consistent with the fact that no naturalist had observed the sudden appearance of a new species.
4. The mechanism of evolutionary change was natural selection. This was the most important and revolutionary part of Darwin's theory, and it deserves to be considered in greater detail.

*One of the prime motives for all species is to reproduce and survive. When species do this they tend to produce more offspring than the environment can support.
*The lack of resources to nourish these individuals places pressure on the size of the species population, and the lack of resources means increased competition and as a consequence, some organisms will not survive.
*The organisms who die as a consequence of this competition were not totally random, Darwin found that those organisms more suited to their environment were more likely to survive.
*This resulted in the well known phrase survival of the fittest, where the organisms most suited to their environment had more chance of survival if the species falls upon hard times. (This phrase if often associated with Darwin, though on closer inspection Herbert Spencer puts the phrase in a more accurate historical context.)
*Those organisms who are better suited to their environment exhibit desirable characteristics.

Consider that Darwin had no idea of inherited traits and had no clue of genes as the driver of change. In fact Darwin actually regretted using the term "Natural Selection", preferring "Natural Preservation"

As we will see the concept of Natural Selection had to be modified due to the discovery of inherited traits and subsequently "genes".
Anaximander invented the theory of natural selection in about 500 BC lol. Don't worry, every scientist alive makes that mistake these days. A few might remark that Alfred Wallace invented the term 'natural selection,' not Darwin, but astonishingly few even do that.
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