Origin Quesitons

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
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Steve3007
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by Steve3007 »

Atla wrote:Whatever, you talk about pure logic when it suits you, and you talk about logic applied to reality when it suits you. Like one could freely flip-flop between the two and then deny any contradictions.
I don't really know what you mean when you tell me that I talk about "pure logic" when it suits me and about "logic applied to reality" when it suits me, and I've still yet to see any illustration, from anything I've actually said, of these contradictions you talk about. You don't seem willing to quote what I've said and point out the contradiction in it.

Earlier in this thread you asked:
Why do you think that time is exempt from logic, when spatial dimensions or spatial directions aren't?
I suppose I could try to work out why you might be telling me I think that by trying to figure out what somebody who thought that might say.

If somebody thought that, I guess maybe they might express that thought something like this:

"'Nothing at one time and something at another time' is logically possible.
'Nothing at one place and something at another place' is logically impossible."

Do you think that's what they'd say? I don't know for sure because I don't really know for sure what you're telling me that I think. I don't really know what you mean by "time is exempt from logic, when spatial dimensions or spatial directions aren't".
NukeBan
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by NukeBan »

Steve3007 wrote: May 11th, 2020, 7:39 amYou've got a bit mixed up with your quotes here.
Sorry, my bad, apologies.
Faith covers such things as belief in God.
Ah, only other people suffer from faith, how convenient.
Steve3007
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by Steve3007 »

NukeBan wrote:Ah, only other people suffer from faith, how convenient.
This comment is interesting in its lack of correspondence to anything that has been said.

Where did I say that anybody "suffers" from anything? Where did I propose anything about "only other people"? I didn't. I think this is another interesting example of when a poster has a particular argument in which he's interested, so he sees that argument everywhere, whether it's present or not. That happens a lot in my experience. To a hammer everything looks like a nail.

I was just describing the contexts in which I tend to use a particular word in order to define my understanding of it. In this case the word is "faith". I tend to use the terms "I think...", "I believe..." and "I have faith..." differently. I might say "I think my car is outside". I might even say "I believe my car is outside". But I'm unlikely to say "I have faith that my car is outside". I think most other people use those words like that too and would agree that the last is a slightly odd way of putting it.

I think this is because "faith" tends to be reserved for a particular kind of belief which involves a personal, emotional trust in something which is related to the perceived character of other sentient beings, rather than simply an inductive generalization from experience. Faith in God was simply an obvious example of its usage. Another might be: "I have faith in the essential goodness of humanity" or some such thing.
NukeBan
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by NukeBan »

Steve3007 wrote: May 12th, 2020, 2:50 amThis comment is interesting in its lack of correspondence to anything that has been said.
You attempted to limit faith to belief in God, thus insulating atheists. Read your own posts please.
I didn't. I think this is another interesting example of when a poster has a particular argument in which he's interested, so he sees that argument everywhere, whether it's present or not. That happens a lot in my experience. To a hammer everything looks like a nail.
Baloney Alert!
I was just describing the contexts in which I tend to use a particular word in order to define my understanding of it. In this case the word is "faith". I tend to use the terms "I think...", "I believe..." and "I have faith..." differently. I might say "I think my car is outside". I might even say "I believe my car is outside". But I'm unlikely to say "I have faith that my car is outside". I think most other people use those words like that too and would agree that the last is a slightly odd way of putting it.
Dodging And Weaving Alert!
I think this is because "faith" tends to be reserved for a particular kind of belief which involves a personal, emotional trust in something which is related to the perceived character of other sentient beings, rather than simply an inductive generalization from experience. Faith in God was simply an obvious example of its usage. Another might be: "I have faith in the essential goodness of humanity" or some such thing.
I have faith that you have faith in the infinite scope of human reason, and are attempting to cover that up with a lot of tap dancing so as to prevent an inspection of that faith. As is your right. Nobody is obligated to be a person of reason, and everyone is entitled to whatever ideology they wish to be part of.
Steve3007
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by Steve3007 »

I suppose I could say something like "bizarre and irrelevant reply alert", but I'm not really interested. I'll leave you to it Ormond.
evolution
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by evolution »

NukeBan wrote: May 10th, 2020, 9:23 am
evolution wrote: May 10th, 2020, 5:49 amIs 'every' something overwhelmingly made of nothing?
As far as I know (not a physics major!) the answer is yes. Somethings are made of atoms, and atoms are mostly empty space.
What about quarks? Are they also mostly empty space?
NukeBan wrote: May 9th, 2020, 8:07 pm
What does the example of 'space' show exactly?
Well, for one thing, that most of reality does not fit within our "exists vs. not exists" paradigm in a neat and tidy manner.
What does 'reality' mean to you?

To me, ALL of reality fits perfectly together, in a very neat and tidy manner. In fact Everything fits within my 'exists and not exists' in a perfectly neat and tidy manner.
NukeBan wrote: May 10th, 2020, 9:23 am That is, concepts which are useful in our daily lives at human scale don't always apply very well to larger issues.
ALL concepts which are useful in my daily life at the human scale applies very well to and with ALL larger issues.

What do you see does not apply?

NukeBan wrote: May 10th, 2020, 9:23 am
Obviously 'something' and 'nothing' are human concepts. But why do you say they arise from the divisive nature of thought?
By divisive I mean "to divide" and not argumentative, if that's not already clear.
That was already clearly understood.
NukeBan wrote: May 10th, 2020, 9:23 am I'm writing about the divisive nature of thought in a number of different threads, so just keep reading if you're interested.
I have read a couple, but if you cannot clarify within this thread, then you will not be able to in any other thread also.

To me, thoughts, by themselves, are NOT divisive in nature at all. Thoughts are not necessarily divisive. In fact thoughts can unify just as simply, as easily, and as quickly as divide, and separate.

So, you can write about some alleged "divisive nature of thought" anywhere for any amount of time, but if you can provide evidence and proof of this we will have to wait and see.

What evidence and/or proof to back up and support your claim that thought is divisive by nature?
NukeBan wrote: May 10th, 2020, 9:23 am
Are you proposing there is some so called "large" questions that can not be answered?
Seems likely to me.
Okay. Will you provide any examples for us to look at, and decide for ourselves?
NukeBan wrote: May 10th, 2020, 9:23 am
If you are, then what are some example of those questions exactly?
Keep in mind, we are a species with thousands of hydrogen bombs aimed down our throats, a fact which typically bores us. Given this reality it doesn't seem very credible that we could answer every question, or even come up with the right questions.
If you cannot, then so be it.

But, projecting your own self onto others is not the wisest thing to do.

Did you read my question where are asked you politely to provide some examples of those questions?
evolution
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by evolution »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 10th, 2020, 9:48 am
evolution wrote: May 10th, 2020, 4:06 am

What do you mean by 'again'?

What did the Universe turn into if "it" was not the Universe, and before "it" supposedly transformed back into a Universe, 'again'?
A "universe" is a collection of planets, stars, and galaxies. The super-dense ball of matter prior to the Big Bang does not present as a universe, but as a super-dense ball of matter.
So, how exactly do you define the word 'Universe'?

How human beings define words affects the way they look at and then see things.

See, the actual answer to the whole wondering whether the Universe began or not question is solely depended upon how one defines the word 'Universe'.

Thee actual True and Correct answer just depends on how one is defining the words in the question.
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:13 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 10th, 2020, 9:48 am

A "universe" is a collection of planets, stars, and galaxies. The super-dense ball of matter prior to the Big Bang does not present as a universe, but as a super-dense ball of matter.
So, how exactly do you define the word 'Universe'?

How human beings define words affects the way they look at and then see things.

See, the actual answer to the whole wondering whether the Universe began or not question is solely depended upon how one defines the word 'Universe'.

Thee actual True and Correct answer just depends on how one is defining the words in the question.
"Within" infinite space a universe is a relatively contiguous interrelated collection of galaxies. Our universe would be an example, which, lacking any other evidence, would suggest the similar nature of other universes. A universe goes through cycles of expansion into galaxies and contraction into one or more super-condensed balls of matter. Gravity accounts for the contraction. I'm not sure what accounts for the Big Bang. I've always thought of it as some tipping point, a "last straw", that triggers the explosion. But it could also be two or more super contracted masses colliding.

Given infinity, I imagine Big Bangs going on all over the place like popcorn.
evolution
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by evolution »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am
evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:13 am

So, how exactly do you define the word 'Universe'?

How human beings define words affects the way they look at and then see things.

See, the actual answer to the whole wondering whether the Universe began or not question is solely depended upon how one defines the word 'Universe'.

Thee actual True and Correct answer just depends on how one is defining the words in the question.
"Within" infinite space a universe is a relatively contiguous interrelated collection of galaxies.
The words 'infinite space' implies there is nothing else but space. Is this what you meant? Or, did you just mean that there is no border surrounding space?
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am Our universe would be an example, which, lacking any other evidence, would suggest the similar nature of other universes.
Now you are going way beyond the actual question asked. Who is 'our'? And, what or where is 'our' universe, compared to 'other's' universes?

Just so you are aware, to me, there can only be ONE Universe ONLY.

I just asked you, how exactly do you define the word 'Universe'? I was not asking for all this other information.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am A universe goes through cycles of expansion into galaxies and contraction into one or more super-condensed balls of matter.
Do you KNOW this as a fact? Or, are you just assuming and/or guessing that this is what might happen?
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am Gravity accounts for the contraction. I'm not sure what accounts for the Big Bang. I've always thought of it as some tipping point, a "last straw", that triggers the explosion. But it could also be two or more super contracted masses colliding.
Okay. We now know what you think accounts for the big bang.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am Given infinity, I imagine Big Bangs going on all over the place like popcorn.
Just not in the Universe.

What do you call this place where all these like popcorn big bangs are happening?

Also, if there are more big bangs than just one, then you are implying that they are all the exact same size.
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:09 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am

"Within" infinite space a universe is a relatively contiguous interrelated collection of galaxies.
The words 'infinite space' implies there is nothing else but space. Is this what you meant? Or, did you just mean that there is no border surrounding space?
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am Our universe would be an example, which, lacking any other evidence, would suggest the similar nature of other universes.
Now you are going way beyond the actual question asked. Who is 'our'? And, what or where is 'our' universe, compared to 'other's' universes?

Just so you are aware, to me, there can only be ONE Universe ONLY.

I just asked you, how exactly do you define the word 'Universe'? I was not asking for all this other information.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am A universe goes through cycles of expansion into galaxies and contraction into one or more super-condensed balls of matter.
Do you KNOW this as a fact? Or, are you just assuming and/or guessing that this is what might happen?
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am Gravity accounts for the contraction. I'm not sure what accounts for the Big Bang. I've always thought of it as some tipping point, a "last straw", that triggers the explosion. But it could also be two or more super contracted masses colliding.
Okay. We now know what you think accounts for the big bang.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:42 am Given infinity, I imagine Big Bangs going on all over the place like popcorn.
Just not in the Universe.

What do you call this place where all these like popcorn big bangs are happening?

Also, if there are more big bangs than just one, then you are implying that they are all the exact same size.
It's called "infinity", which is all the room for stuff. Infinity has room for separate, multiple, contiguous collections of galaxies, going through their own Big Bounce cycles. All of them operating in the same fashion.

The "universe" we see and explore is the one that we're in. But, having seen one, it is reasonable to assume that there may be others.
evolution
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by evolution »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 8:47 am
evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:09 am

The words 'infinite space' implies there is nothing else but space. Is this what you meant? Or, did you just mean that there is no border surrounding space?



Now you are going way beyond the actual question asked. Who is 'our'? And, what or where is 'our' universe, compared to 'other's' universes?

Just so you are aware, to me, there can only be ONE Universe ONLY.

I just asked you, how exactly do you define the word 'Universe'? I was not asking for all this other information.



Do you KNOW this as a fact? Or, are you just assuming and/or guessing that this is what might happen?



Okay. We now know what you think accounts for the big bang.



Just not in the Universe.

What do you call this place where all these like popcorn big bangs are happening?

Also, if there are more big bangs than just one, then you are implying that they are all the exact same size.
It's called "infinity", which is all the room for stuff.
What is supposedly called "infinity".

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 8:47 amInfinity has room for separate, multiple, contiguous collections of galaxies, going through their own Big Bounce cycles. All of them operating in the same fashion.
You never defined the word 'Universe' from the way you use that word. So, to me, the One and only Universe Itself remains infinite and eternal.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 8:47 amThe "universe" we see and explore is the one that we're in.
Just as obvious is the fact that there are words in front of these eyes, but I do not say things like this because there is NO need to.

Of course we human beings can see and explore this One Universe, which we are obviously in.

Now you would have to demonstrate how there could possibly be a boundary or border to this one universe before I, anyway, would start considering that there actually could be other universes.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 8:47 am But, having seen one, it is reasonable to assume that there may be others.
Assuming anything without actually evidence and/or proof is just a complete waste of time, a completely unnecessary behavior, and something that can lead you completely astray, well to me anyway. I much prefer to just look at what actually IS instead. That way I can SEE thee actual Truth of things without any distortions getting in the way.

You can assume any thing and all you want, but I do not like to assume any thing.

I suggest that if you want to propose some thing, then you at least answer clarifying questions in regards to how you actually define some of the words you use.
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:49 pm So, to me, the One and only Universe Itself remains infinite and eternal.
Then what do you call a second Big Bang set of galaxies, outside of the one that we're in?
evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:49 pm Now you would have to demonstrate how there could possibly be a boundary or border to this one universe before I, anyway, would start considering that there actually could be other universes.
I suppose it is a matter of imagining the implications of infinity. That's a lot of space to fill.
evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:49 pm I suggest that if you want to propose some thing, then you at least answer clarifying questions in regards to how you actually define some of the words you use.
The fact that we have different answers to a question does not mean that I have not clearly answered your question.

Infinity is theoretically large enough to accommodate an infinite number of Big Bang centered entities.
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by evolution »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm
evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:49 pm So, to me, the One and only Universe Itself remains infinite and eternal.
Then what do you call a second Big Bang set of galaxies, outside of the one that we're in?
A second big bang set of galaxies, inside the Universe that we are in.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm
evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:49 pm Now you would have to demonstrate how there could possibly be a boundary or border to this one universe before I, anyway, would start considering that there actually could be other universes.
I suppose it is a matter of imagining the implications of infinity.
No it is not a matter of imagining the implications of infinity. The Universe is already just logically infinite and eternal anyway, as It could not be logically any other way.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm That's a lot of space to fill.
This is a lot of deflecting the point I made. Do have absolutely any thing that supports the idea of a bounded Universe?
evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:49 pm I suggest that if you want to propose some thing, then you at least answer clarifying questions in regards to how you actually define some of the words you use.
The fact that we have different answers to a question does not mean that I have not clearly answered your question. [/quote]

Our different answers are yet to be seen, and even if we have different answers, then this does not mean that you have clearly answered my question. I have not yet clearly seen your answer to my question, How do you define the word 'Universe'?

If you want to say that you did clearly answer that question previously, then will you direct us to where you supposedly did?
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm Infinity is theoretically large enough to accommodate an infinite number of Big Bang centered entities.
So what?

This has nothing at all to do with what I am questioning you about.
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by Marvin_Edwards »

evolution wrote: May 13th, 2020, 4:51 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm

Then what do you call a second Big Bang set of galaxies, outside of the one that we're in?
A second big bang set of galaxies, inside the Universe that we are in.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm

I suppose it is a matter of imagining the implications of infinity.
No it is not a matter of imagining the implications of infinity. The Universe is already just logically infinite and eternal anyway, as It could not be logically any other way.
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm That's a lot of space to fill.
This is a lot of deflecting the point I made. Do have absolutely any thing that supports the idea of a bounded Universe?
evolution wrote: May 12th, 2020, 6:49 pm I suggest that if you want to propose some thing, then you at least answer clarifying questions in regards to how you actually define some of the words you use.
The fact that we have different answers to a question does not mean that I have not clearly answered your question.
Our different answers are yet to be seen, and even if we have different answers, then this does not mean that you have clearly answered my question. I have not yet clearly seen your answer to my question, How do you define the word 'Universe'?

If you want to say that you did clearly answer that question previously, then will you direct us to where you supposedly did?
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm Infinity is theoretically large enough to accommodate an infinite number of Big Bang centered entities.
So what?

This has nothing at all to do with what I am questioning you about.
[/quote]

Obviously we're using two different definitions of the term "universe". My definition of a universe is "that set of galaxies related to one Big Bang event", such that multiple universes of my type can exist within infinity. Your definition of universe is infinity.

There are some who presume that only a single set of galaxies related to a single Big Bang event exists. I do not presume that to be the case. Since there is no way to prove or disprove either presumption, they are equally valid.
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Re: Origin Quesitons

Post by evolution »

Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 13th, 2020, 6:00 am
evolution wrote: May 13th, 2020, 4:51 am

A second big bang set of galaxies, inside the Universe that we are in.



No it is not a matter of imagining the implications of infinity. The Universe is already just logically infinite and eternal anyway, as It could not be logically any other way.



This is a lot of deflecting the point I made. Do have absolutely any thing that supports the idea of a bounded Universe?



The fact that we have different answers to a question does not mean that I have not clearly answered your question.
Our different answers are yet to be seen, and even if we have different answers, then this does not mean that you have clearly answered my question. I have not yet clearly seen your answer to my question, How do you define the word 'Universe'?

If you want to say that you did clearly answer that question previously, then will you direct us to where you supposedly did?
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 12th, 2020, 7:54 pm Infinity is theoretically large enough to accommodate an infinite number of Big Bang centered entities.
So what?

This has nothing at all to do with what I am questioning you about.
Obviously we're using two different definitions of the term "universe". My definition of a universe is "that set of galaxies related to one Big Bang event", such that multiple universes of my type can exist within infinity. Your definition of universe is infinity. [/quote]

Just to make it clear my definition of 'Universe' is not infinity.

And, how do you logically separate one set of galaxies from a supposed another set?
Marvin_Edwards wrote: May 13th, 2020, 6:00 amThere are some who presume that only a single set of galaxies related to a single Big Bang event exists. I do not presume that to be the case. Since there is no way to prove or disprove either presumption, they are equally valid.
And there are some who do not presume anything at all here but instead just look at what actually happens. This way they do not assume what could have happened. They, instead, SEE what thee actual Truth IS.
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