The Concept of Zero

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Stanley Huang
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The Concept of Zero

Post by Stanley Huang »

I heard people saying that the concept of zero comes from India and so as the game chess. But it is not just India that talks about zero, other culture also talks about zero.

When I was a school student, my tutor said to me that zero is an important number. She felt that if there is no zero, then, no other number can be possible.

But what is zero? We often talk about zero, but what is zero?

If I ask you 'what is zero,' maybe you will say: "Zero is just nothing. Or zero is where things are lacking."

But if zero exists, then, is zero an existence on its own or is zero simply just the lacking of things?

Because if zero is where things lacking, then, zero is non existence, but if zero is itself an existing entity, then, zero is an existing thing own its own.

So what is zero?

Perhaps, a person interested in maths will be interested in the question: If zero exists, then, what is it?

Is it an entity own its own, or is it not an entity, showing the absence of things?

And secondly, to me, zero is an indefinite number just like infinity?

Where mathematicians felt that the number zero is just as strange as the number 'infinity.'

Is zero and infinity similar?
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Gareth
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Gareth »

Within mathmatics zero is a useful tool to balance differing equations in reality however number is something to apply to existing entities so zero is just a method of talking about entities which we do not possess (so "Yes, we have no [zero] bananas")
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Stanley Huang
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Stanley Huang »

Are you a mathematician?

Because to me, if there is only space, then, to me, that is zero.

So metaphysically, if nothing exists, then, that is only space which is zero, showing that space is an entity that is able to exist own its own.

So to me, as a physicist, if there is zero, then, zero itself is an existing entity, rather than pure nothingness.

If there is zero, then, zero to me is just space as an existing entity without anything, so to me, zero is just spatial entity maybe together with the flow of time.
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Gareth
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Gareth »

Not a mathematician but as a philosopher who sees language as tools very much as the later Wittgenstein did then zero is just a word which fuctions in different ways in different language games.
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Simply Wee
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Simply Wee »

Zero, from which all possibilities are drawn from, inflation, not to be confused with the speed of light, but rather it's essence, space, time, energy. All drawn from zero, something that is supposed to represent nothing, yet delivered everything from infinity. Is how I imagine the concept of zero that brings to my mind. It is the little things that are closer to the truth, we look for the end, but the end is at the beginning. I guess. Infinity.
"Men are not disturbed by things, but the view they take of things".
Stanley Huang
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Stanley Huang »

Gareth said: "Not a mathematician but as a philosopher who sees language as tools very much as the later Wittgenstein did then zero is just a word which fuctions in different ways in different language games."

So do you believe that debating is necessary since you see language is an important tool? Do you think debating can solve the problem or at least, can it practically help us in our daily life?

And why did you say that zero functions differently in different function games? If zero is zero, isn't it all the same in different systems, just like a car on the road is also the same if you put it in a large ship. So why is zero different in different function games? Can you explain?

Simply Wee said: "Zero, from which all possibilities are drawn from, inflation, not to be confused with the speed of light, but rather it's essence, space, time, energy. All drawn from zero, something that is supposed to represent nothing, yet delivered everything from infinity."

I am unsure about that, since modern microbiologists said that cells or atoms do not come from no where, rather, by transformation from one form of matter to another form.

The Greek philosopher Aristotle or Democritus said that things are transformed rather than created.

But some Chinese philosophers in the past said that if things exist, then, it might spring from zero or pure nothingness, but that may be a metaphysical saying rather than an epistemological one.

Ok?
Simply Wee
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Simply Wee »

Stanley Huang said..

"Simply Wee said: "Zero, from which all possibilities are drawn from, inflation, not to be confused with the speed of light, but rather it's essence, space, time, energy. All drawn from zero, something that is supposed to represent nothing, yet delivered everything from infinity."

I am unsure about that, since modern microbiologists said that cells or atoms do not come from no where, rather, by transformation from one form of matter to another form.

The Greek philosopher Aristotle or Democritus said that things are transformed rather than created.

But some Chinese philosophers in the past said that if things exist, then, it might spring from zero or pure nothingness, but that may be a metaphysical saying rather than an epistemological one.

Ok?"

When did I say infinity is nothing? I said we think of zero as nothing, yet zero appears to be a gateway to infinity, which being infinity is far from nothing, but more likely more than everything without time, time which for us is a reality. Therefore I agree with Aristotle, that things are transformed, rather than created. It's just that I account for what stands beyond the light of reasoning, and therefore include time.
"Men are not disturbed by things, but the view they take of things".
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Spiral Out
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Spiral Out »

The concept of zero is the flip side of the concept of infinity. They are equal and opposing concepts. They apparently cannot exist in reality. (Note: I have conflicting thoughts about infinity.)

In mathematics, zero is merely a placeholder for the Arabic numeral system. Math rules say you may multiply by zero, and only because the product can be represented, but then cannot divide by zero, and only because the result cannot be represented. It makes no sense in equations where: five times zero equals zero, but then how can you have five of nothing? Indeed, if that's the case then you may also say you have an infinite number of nothing or that you've been the ruler of the universe for zero years. Five divided by zero equals infinity, but then how can you say you've divided something zero times, in which case why would it be expressed at all? Infinity times zero equals zero (by general rule) but how can you have infinite nothings, and why doesn't infinity have equal opposing power at that point? Infinity divided by zero equals infinity (by general rule) and why doesn't infinity have equal opposing power at that point as well?

In an attempt to apply zero to physical reality, it becomes an infinite void. Zero cannot exist in reality. In real terms, infinity leaves no room for containment and zero leaves no room for existence. They are equal and opposite, and as such, cancel each other.

If you ask someone if they have any money, and they don't, they will not reply with "I have zero money", they will simply say "I have no money". Zero is not analogous to "none", or an absence of some existent thing, rather a representation of the concept of a void, or lack of existence. This is where it gets strange because I can claim to have zero "Vilorporags" and nobody can prove me wrong.

I have a headache now...
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Stanley Huang
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Stanley Huang »

No, it is possible that zero can exist. I feel the statement 'Zero cannot exist' is a dangerous claim. Because if zero exists, then, zero is not pure nothingness, rather, zero is like an existing entity or an existing object, which pure space itself, if it exists, is just like an concrete object, which I do not believe there is anything wierd about it.

Secondly, you said that no numbers can divided by zero. When I was in year 3, at school, my teacher also said that you cannot divided by zero. But I questioned and later on, I asked: "Why can't anything divided by zero?"

It just does not sound logical.

Then, I heard my sister saying: "In higher level mathematics, you can divided by zero."

So, it is possible to divide by zero, or any number can be divided by zero.

Because what you learn in school, is just like when your teacher trying to teach you about the atoms by drawing an image. But if you get to higher level, your teacher may say to you that the image of atom is just an illusion, or a picture that may allow you to understand as a model, but in higher level, maybe there is no such image.

So what you learn in school about the numerical system may be just like that. Where the teacher may say to you that you cannot divide by zero or that pi is an irrational number, or that one plues one must be two, but if you move to higher level, then, one plus one may be eight, or things may be able to divide by zero, or pi is not an irrational number at all.

Maybe Godel was interested and questioned what he learnt in school.

But to me, if anything can exist, then, why can't it divide by zero?
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Spiral Out
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Spiral Out »

Numbers cannot be divided by zero because it produces infinity. Try to divide any number by zero on your calculator. It won't do it because infinity cannot be represented. To me, if we cannot divide by zero, neither should we be able to multiply by zero.

Zero as a concept exists, zero as an actuality does not, by it's very definition and nature.

If you wish to make up your own mathematical rules then by all means knock yourself out. If you want one plus one to equal eight then why not. If you want pi to equal 42 then so be it. Just don't try to apply your math rules in real life. They won't work.

If you think zero must exist then do me a favor, imagine zero in your mind. What do you see?
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Stanley Huang
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Stanley Huang »

No, maths is not a rule invented by human. Idealist who supported idealism will think that maths is created by human mind. But I am not a believer that maths is invented by me. Metaphysics is not created by me.

So I do not believe in what Plato says, when he says that man is the measurement of all things. He is an idealist mathematician, and Russell opposed idealism.

In this fierce debate, to me, it is not about inventing maths rule. It is about what is the fact and how philosophy can practically help mankind?

The calculator is invented by human and so it functions like what the person who invented such thing thinks. So it may not be fair or it may not be right to say that the calculator is correct, because if another person thinks that one plus one is eight and he programmed a calculator to do that, then, the calculator will say that one plus one is eight.

So the calculator may not be a reflection of metaphysical reality, rather, it may be just a reflection of what the person who created such an object thinks; so if you think the calculator is right, maybe you are in real danger.

And secondly, the calculator can perform eight times zero, and this is strange, because if a calculator can perform any number times by zero, why can't it perform any number divided by zero? It does not sound logical?

So this is why before, I feel that the numerical system that is written in school may not be perfect. Before, I asked my teacher: What is infinity plus one? What is infinity plus infinity?

She said you cannot do that?

But why not?

Infinity plus infinity to me, this will give up 2 infinities.

What is that? It is just like if you have infinite numbers or apples and then, you plus infinite numbers of oranges, then, you have two infinities: One is infinite numbers of apples and the other is infinite numbers of oranges.

So from my words, infinity can plus infinity, where you get two series of infinite numers, like infinite numbers of apples plus infinite numbers of oranges, then, you have two series of infinities, right?

So infinity can plus infinity and any number can divide by zero.

We can use matrix to perform infinity plus infinity or the division of zero.
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Gulnara
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Gulnara »

Zero does not mean "nothing". Zero is on a border between things identified and not identified. Once the identification is set in, or something is appointed it's name or meaning or characteristic, then 1 appears.
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Newglobalstrategy
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Newglobalstrategy »

I think zero or nothing may be a lot more interesting than it at first appears. Perhaps if zero were stable there would be zero and everything we see around us is a product nothing being ever so slightly unstable and mutating into +1 and -1 from time to time and then back to zero again. This may help explain some of the quantum effects we see as if something interferes with either the +1 or -1 then chain reactions occur. So the question is have we proved nothing is a stable state?
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Spiral Out
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Spiral Out »

Zero cannot be anything but a concept since it is an absolute value that must be relative to the existence of everything. A zero would negate all existence since it cannot be contained.
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Kansara
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Re: The Concept of Zero

Post by Kansara »

Yes the concept of zero comes from India and it was not developed to explain number zero but it was developed to explain emptiness or what Budhha called ‘nothingness’ or perhaps what Tao is. Basically it was more about the ‘state’ than number. It is called ‘sunya’ in Sanskrit. It was more a philosophical term that time.

From mathematical stand point The rules governing the use of zero appeared for the first time in Brahmagupta's book Brahmasputha Siddhanta (The Opening of the Universe),[31] written in 628 AD Here are the rules from Wikipedia Rules of Brahmagupta The rules governing the use of zero appeared for the first time in Brahmagupta's book Brahmasputha Siddhanta (The Opening of the Universe),[31] written in 628 AD. Here Brahmagupta considers not only zero, but negative numbers, and the algebraic rules for the elementary operations of arithmetic with such numbers. In some instances, his rules differ from the modern standard. Here are the rules of Brahmagupta:[31]

The sum of zero and a negative number is negative. The sum of zero and a positive number is positive. The sum of zero and zero is zero. The sum of a positive and a negative is their difference; or, if their absolute values are equal, zero. A positive or negative number when divided by zero is a fraction with the zero as denominator. Zero divided by a negative or positive number is either zero or is expressed as a fraction with zero as numerator and the finite quantity as denominator. Zero divided by zero is zero.

In saying zero divided by zero is zero, Brahmagupta differs from the modern position. Mathematicians normally do not assign a value to this, whereas computers and calculators sometimes assign NaN, which means "not a number." Moreover, non-zero positive or negative numbers when divided by zero are either assigned no value, or a value of unsigned infinity, positive infinity, or negative infinity. Once again, these assignments are not numbers, and are associated more with computer science than pure mathematics, where in most contexts no assignment is done.
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