What shape is our universe?

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

What shape is our universe?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

I don't know if science has an answer or not. It would seem a natural question to ask.

If you asked me, my guess would be a sphere. The BB would imply such a shape. What say you? Is it spherical, cubed shape, oval or what?
User avatar
Wuliheron
Posts: 422
Joined: May 27th, 2013, 2:02 am

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Wuliheron »

In every direction astronomers can look space-time itself appears to be as flat as a board, while Relativity suggests it should curve back on itself. Quantum mechanics suggests being both flat and curved is probably correct.
A Poster He or I
Posts: 1104
Joined: March 18th, 2011, 4:57 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Anaximander

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by A Poster He or I »

General Relativity, the mainstream cosmological theory for the last 90+ years suggests, in its most parsimonious interpretation, that the universe's shape is a hypersphere: a 4-dimensional sphere. To our 3-dimensional view of things, space-time appears flat and also infinite, however, straight parallel lines will eventually intersect (if drawn out far enough) as a consequence of the curvature in the unseen 4th dimensional direction.

However, this interpretation requires the 4th-dimensional curvature of space-time to be able to be modeled by positive-valued numbers in linear progression. General Relativity doesn't require this. If actual modelling of curvature were to require negative numers or non-linear progressions of numbers, then the universe could be 4th-dimensionally shaped like a parabola or a horse's saddle, both of which are open-ended with no edge, and therefore infinite, or a more complex closed shape like a torus (donut-shaped).
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Steve3007 »

It's interesting to consider the possibility of seeing the back of your own head without a mirror.
Atla
Posts: 2540
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Atla »

If the universe makes sense, then in might circular, but this kind of circularity is probably unrelated to shape or curvature. Circular in all 'dimensions' of spacetime. So a distant point in space in front of you is the same as a distant point in space behind you. And a distant point in time in your future is the same as a distant point time in your past. (And the only viable model to the end of our part of the universe is the Big Crunch.) Plus the universe should have perfect symmetry so there is an identical anti-universe out there with an identical anti-you. (But can you 'two' work together in some sense, now that you know this, or is that impossible? Ha! :) )
So obviously, the universe should be bigger than the part that came from the Big Bang.
Plus the universe/multiverse may be structurally circular in other ways too, but that's an extremely deep issue, and I have never seen it discussed anywhere.

And if the universe doesn't make sense, then I don't really care, because then we are just wasting our time here. Then metaphysics is every restricted and can't even attempt to address some of the big questions (for example: why are we, humans, here right now?).
True philosophy points to the Moon
gater
Posts: 267
Joined: September 6th, 2019, 12:02 am

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by gater »

It has no shape, it's just endless space forever.
creation
Posts: 1172
Joined: November 22nd, 2019, 10:39 pm

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by creation »

When what the 'Universe' is, is actually understood in a logically reasoned way, which makes sense, then the 'shape' of the Universe becomes crystal clear as well.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Steve3007 »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:If you asked me, my guess would be a sphere. The BB would imply such a shape. What say you? Is it spherical, cubed shape, oval or what?
I know you're long gone but I'm going to answer anyway.

This may seem picky, but obviously we couldn't model a Universe in which it takes 3 numbers to define spatial position by using the 3 dimensional geometrical concept of a sphere. We could only use such a mathematical concept to model the spatial aspects of a 2 dimensional Universe. In that model, the 2 dimensions of space would be represented by the surface of the sphere. We could use a hyper-sphere (the 4 or more dimensional analogue of a sphere). I'm pointing this out explicitly, despite it perhaps seeming obvious, because the comments of lots of people on this kind of subject seem to show that they don't grasp this. So best to be clear about it.

The trouble is, it is impossible to visualise such exotic mathematical objects as hyper-spheres or hyper-toruses. And people like to be able to visualise models, even though they're only models. Mathematically, we can add as many dimensions as we like. We can just keep applying the mathematical/geometrical rules that we used for lower numbers of dimensions. But for the sake of visualisation, we take it down a dimension or two, while never forgetting that this is what we have done. And, of course, we must never forget that what we're talking about is finding a mathematical model that best describes what is observed.

So, we think of ourselves as living in a 3 dimensional space because we have observed that it takes 3 numbers to uniquely define the position of an object. Rene Descartes, the namesake of "Cartesian coordinates", reportedly observed it by watching a fly on his bedroom ceiling.

https://wild.maths.org/ren%C3%A9-descar ... ly-ceiling

The idea that we live in a 3 dimensional spatial world stems from these observations. It is an empirical fact, as opposed to being some kind of logically certain axiom. So we could imaging what it might be like if things were different; if we lived in a 2 dimensional spatial world. If we lived in a world like that and found that a long journey in a straight line in any given direction brought us back to our starting point then we could model that behaviour as a sphere.
Alan Masterman
Posts: 219
Joined: March 27th, 2011, 8:03 am

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Alan Masterman »

A Poster He or I wrote: August 21st, 2013, 7:00 pm General Relativity, the mainstream cosmological theory for the last 90+ years suggests, in its most parsimonious interpretation, that the universe's shape is a hypersphere: a 4-dimensional sphere. To our 3-dimensional view of things, space-time appears flat and also infinite, however, straight parallel lines will eventually intersect (if drawn out far enough) as a consequence of the curvature in the unseen 4th dimensional direction.

However, this interpretation requires the 4th-dimensional curvature of space-time to be able to be modeled by positive-valued numbers in linear progression. General Relativity doesn't require this. If actual modelling of curvature were to require negative numers or non-linear progressions of numbers, then the universe could be 4th-dimensionally shaped like a parabola or a horse's saddle, both of which are open-ended with no edge, and therefore infinite, or a more complex closed shape like a torus (donut-shaped).
I report this contributor for posting a reply which is concise, lucid, intelligible, and correctly represents the current state of our knowledge. The contributor should be aware that such replies are not acceptable. Shame on you sir (or madam)! :)
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Alan Masterman wrote: November 17th, 2020, 5:48 pm
A Poster He or I wrote: August 21st, 2013, 7:00 pm General Relativity, the mainstream cosmological theory for the last 90+ years suggests, in its most parsimonious interpretation, that the universe's shape is a hypersphere: a 4-dimensional sphere. To our 3-dimensional view of things, space-time appears flat and also infinite, however, straight parallel lines will eventually intersect (if drawn out far enough) as a consequence of the curvature in the unseen 4th dimensional direction.

However, this interpretation requires the 4th-dimensional curvature of space-time to be able to be modeled by positive-valued numbers in linear progression. General Relativity doesn't require this. If actual modelling of curvature were to require negative numers or non-linear progressions of numbers, then the universe could be 4th-dimensionally shaped like a parabola or a horse's saddle, both of which are open-ended with no edge, and therefore infinite, or a more complex closed shape like a torus (donut-shaped).
I report this contributor for posting a reply which is concise, lucid, intelligible, and correctly represents the current state of our knowledge. The contributor should be aware that such replies are not acceptable. Shame on you sir (or madam)! :)

That individual was last active on July 26th, 2018, at 12:55 pm, so maybe that individual was removed for such offenses.


So, to give an acceptable answer, I say, the shape of the universe is like a the shape of a dog. More specifically, a pit bull. The reasons are obvious.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

For people who do not know what that shape is like:

https://www.barkspot.com/wp-content/upl ... 6x1024.jpg
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Steve3007 »

Alan Masterman wrote:I report this contributor for posting a reply which is concise, lucid, intelligible, and correctly represents the current state of our knowledge. The contributor should be aware that such replies are not acceptable. Shame on you sir (or madam)! :)
I agree with your tongue-in-cheek praise of that contributor. The poster you're talking about ("A Poster He or I", which was a play on the term "a posteriori") was a person who I got to know quite well when he was here. He was definitely one of the more lucid and sane posters on this site and we had some interesting conversations on the philosophy of science particularly.
User avatar
Jack D Ripper
Posts: 610
Joined: September 30th, 2020, 10:30 pm
Location: Burpelson Air Force Base
Contact:

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Jack D Ripper »

Steve3007 wrote: November 18th, 2020, 5:27 am
Alan Masterman wrote:I report this contributor for posting a reply which is concise, lucid, intelligible, and correctly represents the current state of our knowledge. The contributor should be aware that such replies are not acceptable. Shame on you sir (or madam)! :)
I agree with your tongue-in-cheek praise of that contributor. The poster you're talking about ("A Poster He or I", which was a play on the term "a posteriori") was a person who I got to know quite well when he was here. He was definitely one of the more lucid and sane posters on this site and we had some interesting conversations on the philosophy of science particularly.

You have explained why he would leave.


I believe the correct response to the opening question is, we don't know. (Even if the post under discussion gives the best guess.) Due to people being troublesome things, they don't tend to like that as a response to something, so they tend to just make stuff up when that is the case. So, until someone proves it one way or another, I will stick with my theory above.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence." - David Hume
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Steve3007 »

Jack D Ripper wrote:I believe the correct response to the opening question is, we don't know.
I'd say the correct response is that it depends what our purpose is in using the concept of shape as a device for describing the observed properties of the universe.
So, until someone proves it one way or another, I will stick with my theory above.
Fair enough, although the reasons for proposing the shape of a pit bull aren't immediately obvious to me. Is the character of the pit bull a factor, or is it just the shape? Would, for example, a poodle serve just as well?
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: What shape is our universe?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: August 20th, 2013, 7:57 pm I don't know if science has an answer or not. It would seem a natural question to ask.

If you asked me, my guess would be a sphere. The BB would imply such a shape. What say you? Is it spherical, cubed shape, oval or what?
Since all shapes can only be determined by the negative space around them, it is clear that the universe itself can only be shapeless since their is no space beyond it.
The universe itself does not extend into anything external.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021