A time paradox

Use this forum to discuss the philosophy of science. Philosophy of science deals with the assumptions, foundations, and implications of science.
Post Reply
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

A time paradox

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

"Grandpa, Grandpa. I'm all confused."

Grandpa: (groan) "Yes, what is it?"

Grandson: "In today's class we analyzed the flight of an arrow with snapshots. Now the arrow moves in flight towards its target, but those snapshots don't show any movement which is a paradox. And I know none of those snapshots will show any movement no matter how many snapshots are taken. And if you say that all you need to do is measure the time between snapshots, that will mean there are gaps between snapshots and there are no movements in those gaps. Grandpa, grandpa I'm so confused."

Grandpa: "Why don't you ask your teacher these questions? That's what he gets paid for."

Can you help Grandpa out of this jam?
User avatar
Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: A time paradox

Post by Thinking critical »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:"Grandpa, Grandpa. I'm all confused."

Grandpa: (groan) "Yes, what is it?"

Grandson: "In today's class we analyzed the flight of an arrow with snapshots. Now the arrow moves in flight towards its target, but those snapshots don't show any movement which is a paradox. And I know none of those snapshots will show any movement no matter how many snapshots are taken. And if you say that all you need to do is measure the time between snapshots, that will mean there are gaps between snapshots and there are no movements in those gaps. Grandpa, grandpa I'm so confused."

Grandpa: "Why don't you ask your teacher these questions? That's what he gets paid for."

Can you help Grandpa out of this jam?
How is this a time paradox? This is relativity, if snapshots showed a stationary object as a point of reference, movement could be measured relative to the stationary object.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Re: A time paradox

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

To TC,

The paradox still stands because the gaps still remain between the snapshots. You would need to take an infinity of snapshots to eliminate those gaps between snapshots which is impossible to do in this scenario. So we have a situation of movement and nonmovement in this scenario, a paradox.

Edit: maybe I should explain why I titled this thread "A time paradox" instead of "A movement paradox." Well time is a good eyecatcher and it is intricately tied up with movement. You should compare this thread with Zeno's paradoxes, i.e. the one about the arrow (the significant difference is that in Zeno's day, there were no cameras to take snapshots).
User avatar
Thinking critical
Posts: 1793
Joined: November 7th, 2011, 7:29 pm
Favorite Philosopher: A.C Grayling
Location: Perth, Australia (originally New Zealand)

Re: A time paradox

Post by Thinking critical »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:To TC,

The paradox still stands because the gaps still remain between the snapshots. You would need to take an infinity of snapshots to eliminate those gaps between snapshots which is impossible to do in this scenario. So we have a situation of movement and nonmovement in this scenario, a paradox.

Edit: maybe I should explain why I titled this thread "A time paradox" instead of "A movement paradox." Well time is a good eyecatcher and it is intricately tied up with movement. You should compare this thread with Zeno's paradoxes, i.e. the one about the arrow (the significant difference is that in Zeno's day, there were no cameras to take snapshots).
How is it a paradox, the parameters clearly state, snap shot's have been taken of specific moments in time, the gaps arise as a matter of consequence, the problem can be overcome by simply using a video recorder, with a continuous filming motion. The premise is logically sound, gaps in time are excepted between frames due the nature of snapshots, without a point of reference, the theory of relativity specifically states the moving objects will appear motionless.
This cocky little cognitive contortionist will straighten you right out
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Re: A time paradox

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

TC said:

"the problem can be overcome by simply using a video recorder, with a continuous filming motion."

I don't know if a continuous filming motion can be done, but for sake of argument, let's say that's the case. You make the gaps disappear, but then so do the snapshots. Maybe I'm taking this too literally so maybe you can stop the machine at intermittent points. So now you have motionless points along with the motion when this machine is running, so now you can show motion and nonmotion which is contradictory.

Now maybe such a machine doesn't exist because unless something changed with the technology, my understanding is that filming and recording is done on a frame-by-frame basis instead of continuous motion.
User avatar
Fafner88
Posts: 377
Joined: August 30th, 2013, 8:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Wittgenstein
Location: Israel

Re: A time paradox

Post by Fafner88 »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:And I know none of those snapshots will show any movement no matter how many snapshots are taken.
Why? Let's suppose that that arrows flight consist of an infinite number of snapshots, where's the problem? Or is it just the same as Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the turtle?
Philosophy Explorer wrote:And if you say that all you need to do is measure the time between snapshots, that will mean there are gaps between snapshots and there are no movements in those gaps.
Why should we think that there are "time gaps" between the shots? If one takes seriously the A-theory of time, then there are no such 'gaps' but constant and continues change, whether the flight is discrete or continuous.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Re: A time paradox

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

Fafner said:

"Why? Let's suppose that that arrows flight consist of an infinite number of snapshots, where's the problem? Or is it just the same as Zeno's paradox of Achilles and the turtle?"

You can suppose it, but all you can take is a finite number of snapshots which means: (1) motionless pictures while the arrow is supposed to be moving in flight, a contradiction (2) wrong paradox - the right paradox to compare with is Zeno's paradox of the arrow.

"Why should we think that there are "time gaps" between the shots? If one takes seriously the A-theory of time, then there are no such 'gaps' but constant and continues change, whether the flight is discrete or continuous."

The snapshots are motionless, they don't show constant and continued change. We should think there are time gaps between the snapshots because the arrow is in motion during its flight - this is helping to create the paradox.
User avatar
Fafner88
Posts: 377
Joined: August 30th, 2013, 8:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Wittgenstein
Location: Israel

Re: A time paradox

Post by Fafner88 »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:You can suppose it, but all you can take is a finite number of snapshots which means: (1) motionless pictures while the arrow is supposed to be moving in flight
But they move in relation to one another, if you take seriously the A-theory of time, then the pictures do change because the present is constantly 'moving' from the future to the past. From the fact that nothing changes in a given moment it doesn't follow that nothing is changing at all. Every snapshot taken by itself is motionless, but it doesn't mean that time can't move by virtue of a special kind of relation between all the snapshots.
Philosophy Explorer wrote:The snapshots are motionless, they don't show constant and continued change. We should think there are time gaps between the snapshots because the arrow is in motion during its flight - this is helping to create the paradox.
I don't see why. There mustn't be any gap between the snapshots, time changes by virtue of simultaneous appearance of new snapshots in the present and disappearance of the old ones into the past.
User avatar
Philosophy Explorer
Posts: 2116
Joined: May 25th, 2013, 8:41 pm

Re: A time paradox

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

I suppose with what you're bringing up now, that you're an A-theorist as opposed to being a B-theorist regarding time. You're saying that since time is moving forward, that pushes those moments shown in the snapshots backwards in time which resembles movement. But, with respect to each snapshot, there is no movement within each snapshot as each snapshot captures that moment in time which stays the same as everything else outside of the snapshot is also moves backwards in time at the same rate as what's depicted in the snapshot so nothing changes relative to what's outside of the snapshot.
User avatar
Fafner88
Posts: 377
Joined: August 30th, 2013, 8:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Wittgenstein
Location: Israel

Re: A time paradox

Post by Fafner88 »

Philosophy Explorer wrote:But, with respect to each snapshot, there is no movement within each snapshot as each snapshot captures that moment in time which stays the same as everything else outside of the snapshot is also moves backwards in time at the same rate as what's depicted in the snapshot so nothing changes relative to what's outside of the snapshot.
Yes, but temporal change isn't defined (according to this theory) by what is happening with each snapshot individually, but by their succession. There's change because the present is occupied by different snapshot at each moment (i.e. the domain of the existential quantifier constantly changes).
Raymond
Posts: 317
Joined: January 23rd, 2022, 6:47 pm

Re: A time paradox

Post by Raymond »

This paradox emerges because it supposes time can be halted. Fact is that time can't be stopped, even if there is no motion in space.
SteveKlinko
Posts: 710
Joined: November 19th, 2021, 11:43 am

Re: A time paradox

Post by SteveKlinko »

Philosophy Explorer wrote: September 6th, 2013, 10:07 pm "Grandpa, Grandpa. I'm all confused."

Grandpa: (groan) "Yes, what is it?"

Grandson: "In today's class we analyzed the flight of an arrow with snapshots. Now the arrow moves in flight towards its target, but those snapshots don't show any movement which is a paradox. And I know none of those snapshots will show any movement no matter how many snapshots are taken. And if you say that all you need to do is measure the time between snapshots, that will mean there are gaps between snapshots and there are no movements in those gaps. Grandpa, grandpa I'm so confused."

Grandpa: "Why don't you ask your teacher these questions? That's what he gets paid for."

Can you help Grandpa out of this jam?
Why is the fact that the Snapshots don't show any movement a Paradox? They are Snapshots and are not supposed to show movement.
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of Science”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021