What is evolution's greatest challenge?

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What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

I believe that the theory of evolution is able to explain many things, still I don't regard it as perfect. I'm sure many are aware that evolution is unable to give a wholly satisfactory explanation on the extinction of the dinosaurs for example. Then there's the case of the Ainu (Caucasian people) winding up on a Japanese island with no one knowing how they got over there. And other unexplainable things.

Maybe another way of looking at it is what's the greatest mystery that evolution holds for you?
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Dolphin42 »

I think it's important to remember about all such general laws that they can't necessarily be used to precisely explain the details of every individual case, because, although they may be relatively simple to state, they act on unimaginably complex systems.

That's why the laws of physics, for example, can generally only be applied directly to very, very simple idealized situations. (Remember the physicist trying to predict the outcome of a horse race? - "OK. Assume a spherical horse in a vacuum".)

Anyway, I suspect for most people the biggest challenges are 1. the origins of life and 2. the evolutionary reasons why humans need to have brains capable of understanding rocket science, brain surgery and Hamlet.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Tyrannical »

There is still a lot we don't understand about how evolution works.

Oh, and the Ainu probably walked to Japan because the South China Sea had land bridges or narrow water to Japan during the last ice age.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Playdoh »

To me, evolution's greatest flaw is accounting for the vast difference between humans and all other life forms that are observable. How is it that intelligence as an adaptive selective trait only got chosen for once in nature. Isn't evolution the selection of the strongest traits? If intelligence is a trait, and we have been more successful then any other species because of it's development, then how is it that it is so rare to find it in nature.

Ofcourse i've heard the counter to this argument. That it was because we started walking upright which gave us access to hands which allowed us to find ways to use them in new innovative ways. It still seems lacking as an explanation. Or the argument that other species have intelligence such as dolphins or apes, but comparing a human's intelligence to a chimp is like comparing a hamster to a velociraptor. There's just a gigantic leap from us from any other species, why the leap?

Another thought is why did neanderthals die out if they too were intelligent and practical. Or any homo-species for that manner?
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

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Playdoh wrote:To me, evolution's greatest flaw is accounting for the vast difference between humans and all other life forms that are observable. How is it that intelligence as an adaptive selective trait only got chosen for once in nature. Isn't evolution the selection of the strongest traits? If intelligence is a trait, and we have been more successful then any other species because of it's development, then how is it that it is so rare to find it in nature.

Ofcourse i've heard the counter to this argument. That it was because we started walking upright which gave us access to hands which allowed us to find ways to use them in new innovative ways. It still seems lacking as an explanation. Or the argument that other species have intelligence such as dolphins or apes, but comparing a human's intelligence to a chimp is like comparing a hamster to a velociraptor. There's just a gigantic leap from us from any other species, why the leap?

Another thought is why did neanderthals die out if they too were intelligent and practical. Or any homo-species for that manner?
On another thread I posted the reason why Neanderthal became extinct was probably due to genetics
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Philosophy Explorer »

If you go to my The worst period in human history thread in the Philosophers' Lounge and click on the Youtube link in post #3, you will see a NOVA presentation about interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens that led to Neanderthals extinction (but maybe I shouldn't say this since we carry a fraction of their DNA).
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Playdoh:
How is it that intelligence as an adaptive selective trait only got chosen for once in nature. Isn't evolution the selection of the strongest traits? If intelligence is a trait, and we have been more successful then any other species because of it's development, then how is it that it is so rare to find it in nature.
I agree that one of the biggest evolutionary mysteries is the apparently vast gulf between us and our nearest living relatives. But there does seem to be evidence of a pretty wide variety of other hominid species with a whole spectrum of different mental abilities living until, in evolutionary time scales, a few moments ago.

Maybe they died out for essentially the same kinds of reasons that other great apes are currently in the process of dying out in the wild? Maybe this thing we call intelligence is inherently unstable, a bit like completely unregulated free markets, and always leads to monopolies in which one species/company becomes dominant and the rest are driven to extinction?

Philosophy Explorer:
If you go to my The worst period in human history thread in the Philosophers' Lounge and click on the Youtube link in post #3, you will see a NOVA presentation about interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens that led to Neanderthals extinction (but maybe I shouldn't say this since we carry a fraction of their DNA).
I think this evidence that we have some Neanderthal DNA shows that even the concept of extinction is not quite as black-and-white as we might think.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Keithprosser3 »

Maybe they died out for essentially the same kinds of reasons that other great apes are currently in the process of dying out in the wild? Maybe this thing we call intelligence is inherently unstable, a bit like completely unregulated free markets, and always leads to monopolies in which one species/company becomes dominant and the rest are driven to extinction?
Well, possibly. But these days there are 7 billion of us, all consuming resources like there's no tomorrow. I don't think hom. sap. was quite such resource-hogs in the past. I don't think we are necessarily the bad guys in the Neanderthal story. I think this short (2 minute!) BBC documentary shows things quite clearly.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Dolphin42 »

When I said essentially the same reasons I meant that we could have out-competed them in the same general way but on a vastly different scale. These days it's global. I don't really think it's a case of good guys and bad guys either, then or now. We often talk collectively about we as a species doing things like deforestation and destroying the habitats of other species. But we don't collectively decide as a species to destroy other species' habitats. Individuals and groups do it for all kinds of reasons, mostly presumably to do with immediate survival needs. Far be it from me to criticize them for that.

I can't watch the video right now because I'm at work, supposed to be working but bored with it. But it's Horrible Histories so I presume it is both funny and educational. I'll watch it later.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Keithprosser3 »

But we don't collectively decide as a species to destroy other species' habitats.
Or indeed decide to destroy another species. I get the impression that a lot of people imagine 'survival of the fittest' as meaning the strong literally gang up on the weak and commit mass murder. Even worse they think it means believing the strong have a right to do that. A lot of social (so-called-)Darwinism seems based on that model. That false image may have a lot to with some people abhorring the idea of evolution.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Dolphin42 »

Yes, I think it all stems from that old mistake of thinking that laws of nature are prescriptive when they are actually descriptive.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Keithprosser3 »

Back to the actual topic, I have sometimes wondered about change in chromosome count, although it is probably not strictly speaking an evolutionary mystery as just something I am ignorant of. Man has 23 pairs of chromosomes, chimps have 24. So the common ancestor almost certainly had either 23 or 24 pairs. Assume its 24. So how did the first mutant with 23 find a mate they could successfully breed with - the chromosomes can't pair up. Mutation producing two 23 chromosome individuals close enough in time and space to meet and breed seems unlikely as such mutations are surely very rare indeed.

But don't worry about it if you don't know right now- I'm sure I'll find the answer is on the internet when I get enough motivation to actually look.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Playdoh »

The 23 chromosomes are caused by a fusion in chromosomes, I believe Richard Dawkins goes over this in his books/videos. You can actually pair up which chromosome got fused by looking at it's shape and function. There is a condition in humans that causes people to have an extra X chromosome, so it's XXY instead of XY or XX, the name escapes me right now, but these people can sucessfully breed with other humans. So chromosome number doesn't necessarily equate to being unfit to breed.
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Re: What is evolution's greatest challenge?

Post by Keithprosser3 »

Ta.. I'll look into it. I don't really know what is considered a challenge in evolutionary theory - I don't know if its just me that doesn't know, nobody knows or if I don't know what evolutionists know and don't know. I especially don't know what evolutionists know they don't know, which is what a challenge is, er, you know.
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