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Is Art Beautiful?

Use this forum to have philosophical discussions about aesthetics and art. What is art? What is beauty? What makes art good? You can also use this forum to discuss philosophy in the arts, namely to discuss the philosophical points in any particular movie, TV show, book or story.
Jan Sand
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 6:51 am

Why not here? Am I wrong in presuming that this is an open forum for exchanging concepts? As someone who has been active in both fine and commercial art for about 90 years I would assume my submissions might have some acceptance.

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Burning ghost
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Burning ghost » June 22nd, 2018, 7:21 am

Er ...? Well, Mmmm ... No, got nothing! Cannot figure out that reply.

Take care friend :)
AKA badgerjelly

Jan Sand
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 8:04 am

That was a direct reply to your submission and establishes my background to validate my answer.

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Burning ghost
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Burning ghost » June 22nd, 2018, 8:23 am

I was ist pointing out your reply had zero relation to what I commmented on about what Schiller says.

To quote directly:
... The political legislator can bar the way to its domain, but he cannot rule withi it.
The point being that “truth” (presented for simplicity as “science”) and “beauty” (presented fro simplicity as “art”) cannot be altered by political machinations.

As to trh title of the OP art need not be classed as beautiful. And I’d, again, refer to Oscar Wilde’s view that “art is useless”; and again thr context of those words needs to be understood (refer to preface to “The Picture of Dorian Grey”)
AKA badgerjelly

Jan Sand
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 8:36 am

I very much admire the art of Oscar Wilde and have only a small concept of how he might have found use of it but mu life found it immensely fundamental to my existence.

Political machinations such as the Nazi and the Stalinist misconceptions had immense effects on the art of their time and many very capable artists of all kinds took considerable interest in politics. Orwell and Swift and H.G.Wells and Bernard Shaw and Arthur Miller and Picasso and many, many others were deeply involved in politics.

Jan Sand
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 8:48 am

I very much admire the art of Oscar Wilde and have only a small concept of how he might have found use of it but mu life found it immensely fundamental to my existence.

Political machinations such as the Nazi and the Stalinist misconceptions had immense effects on the art of their time and many very capable artists of all kinds took considerable interest in politics. Orwell and Swift and H.G.Wells and Bernard Shaw and Arthur Miller and Pasternak and Bertolt Brecht and Pablo Picasso and George Grosz and many, many others were deeply involved in politics. Art concerns many aspects of life as does politics and the mix of the two is no novelty

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Burning ghost
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Burning ghost » June 22nd, 2018, 9:31 am

Again, you’re avoiding what I’ve said. I never said anywhere, or even suggested as far as I know, that artists don’t get involved in politics.

I’ll assume you didn’t understand what Schiller said and reiterate it ...

A political regime may or may not prevent certain types of art from bleeding into the public sphere (by destruction or by censoring.) This does not effect the essence of “art” though. What is appealing to people aesthetically will remain appealing, people will still be moved by music of a cerrtain quality more than other; in this respect Schiller made a comparison with science becasue that too, regardless of political interference, will remain the same - hence the endeavor of science to this day being barred by certain regimes becasue it doesn;t fit into their world view (flatearthers and those that deny evolution.)

There is an innate “truth” that is untouched by mere rational analysis. This is present in the curious nature of the scientific endeavor and in aesthetic appreciation.

I would not say Napolean was an artist anymore than I’d say Picasso was a conquerer, but I could for effect. We don’t judge a painting he amount of paint used just like we don’t judge the value of scientific theory by is appeal.

Art is an expression of emotion for sure, but so is punching someone in the face. We tend not to refer riots as “art,” but by your logic we could. I would rather not conflate things and make them fuzzy simply becasue it is easier to do so, but I most certainly wouldn’t say we shouldn’t occassionally try to push, prod and poke at the outer reaches of our conceptual understanding - and again here art and science share a common theme, but I am not suggesting they are ubiquitious or of any great valdity beyond mere human experience (the MERE being all I know.)
AKA badgerjelly

Jan Sand
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 10:20 am

I find your struggles to cleanly categorize human fields something in the order of a purist fanatic. We are, after all in this discourse, diving rather deeply into linguistics rather than actualities. The varieties of what is termed art these days has been enlarged to such a tremendous extent that it is not out of order to see naked artists doing acrobatics and defecating on religious symbols which, undeniably have stimulations on emotional, cultural, theological,political, psychological, pathological, legal and perhaps financial areas but they no doubt can be accepted as artistic. What is produced as art can contain many elements of other disciplines as well, whatever the motivations of the artist, and beauty is only one of the possibilities. If the nudist is a beautiful woman, as a male I have no difficulty in including beauty in that described possibility. If you choose to exclude that as art I certainly would not deny you that personal privilege.

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Burning ghost
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Burning ghost » June 22nd, 2018, 12:26 pm

Oh. Have you addressed anything I’ve said? Nope.

Art is a form of emotional expression isn’t it? Is it the only form of emotional expression? Nope. There is a typo above, it should’ve said “punching someone in the face isn’t art ...”

Maybe someone else can point out to me why you’re avoiding to address what I’ve written and instead chosen to paint me as someone with a black and white distinction toward everything in life? I’ve said as much already (see last line of previous post you just responded to) yet you consider such a position as “fanatical”? You cannot have it both ways.

Nothing you’ve said above seems to understand Schiller’s words. Your create an argument that doesn’t exist.

You’ve opened up a discussion about science and art and I bolstered it. Surely you spotted that? We agree, for the most part, yet you wish to look for one fault and make out that that one difference of opinion means we’re totally opposed in every view.

Did I miss something? i am really puzzled. We agree that art and science share commonalities right? I then added that looking at everything through one lens, although useful, is not always optimal. Surely you can get onboard with that?

Then I’ve said that art is an expression of emotion, or more precisely made to provoke certain emotions and even push conceptual boundries. Agree or not?

Is art beautiful? It needn’t be “beautiful”, but to return to Wilde’s comments from the preface of PoDG (the last few lines):

“When critics disagree the artist is in accord with himself.
We can forgive a man for making a useful thing as long as he does not admire it. The only excuse for making a useless thing is that one admires it intensely.
Art is quite useless.”

I’ve not seen a better expression of what “art” is than Mr. Wilde’s tbh. If you’ve not read the preface to that wonderful book I cannot recommend that you do so enough.
AKA badgerjelly

Jan Sand
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 12:57 pm

OK, lets get back to the simple statement you so admire. "Art is emotional". No doubt some art does express emotion. And a hell of a lot of it is analytical. And much of it is technological - using vast varieties of abstractive techniques to discover how our sense apparatus can express surfaces and colors and other types of pattern. It can be merely investigative if how to use a brush or apply pigment to a surface in multitudes of techniques. A dancer can indicate emotion or just plain fantastic skills in the use of a human body. It can express the patterns of sound in physical movement with no definite emotion involved. Random patterns of smoke or clouds or steam or liquid water or the way light bounces around reflections can be fascinating with no emotional connotation. Some people look at an alligator or a mouse or a leaf of poison ivy and find that emotional and others find it totally devoid of emotion but great art. Art can be emotional or something else altogether. I object to the limitations of the word that you are so eager to demand of it and demand of my use of it. I have spent many years of my life exploring the huge varieties of what is called art and it is not simple or limited or easy to classify.

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Burning ghost
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Burning ghost » June 22nd, 2018, 1:18 pm

Are you pulling my leg? Two lines in and the same old same old. Enough is enough, my patience has ran out.

I’ll it to someone else thanks, this is going nowhere fast.
AKA badgerjelly

Jan Sand
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 1:43 pm

If nothing else this is interestingly amusing. I have dealt with you quite directly and your response is merely your expression of helplessness to understand. Sorry.

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Burning ghost
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Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Burning ghost » June 22nd, 2018, 2:43 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
June 22nd, 2018, 1:43 pm
If nothing else this is interestingly amusing. I have dealt with you quite directly and your response is merely your expression of helplessness to understand. Sorry.
Wrong. You’ve made out I am saying something I am not saying, then played the victim, then I tried to set out a meaningful discussion with several points and you took my singular remark about emotion and art as if based on a monopole even though I expressly stated art as “even pushes conceptual boundaries”.

That said, to say some people think a work of art is “great” yet “devoid of emotion” is plain stupidity. Given that you’re obviously one of the eldest people alive on the planet I can only assume senility has kicked it rather than you being here merely to troll or present yourself as some aged sage of “art.”
AKA badgerjelly

Jan Sand
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Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 2:54 pm

On second thought, I probably was too dismissive. I must accept you are seriously seeking to understand art. There is a famous essay by Thomas Nagel "What is it like to be a bat?" in which he reveals that it is not possible to know and I can only guess you are not an artist and therefore cannot know how and why art is created. Since I have created art all my life the mysteries of creating art are deeply embedded in my being. O course there are many disciplines to be learned but copying and repeating disciplines does not guarantee creation. Human brains and probably the brains of many creatures are deep oceans of patterns and drives and weird individual and rarely understood motivations and full of beautiful and horrifying creatures. A secret place of alien monsters and, on occasion one of them will descend to the dark depths and retrieve a treasure and deliver it to you in its mouth and then vanish again. That's where art comes from and frequently it is either impossible to express or not quite what it seems or maybe it has some value. And it is not always emotional. That's about as close as I can get.

Jan Sand
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Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: Is Art Beautiful?

Post by Jan Sand » June 22nd, 2018, 3:09 pm

OK, I never claimed to be a sage, merely an artist. My age really is irrelevant although I was born in 1926. What's important is the nature of art and if you have paid any attention to that sector of activity its spectrum has widened extensively during my lifetime. A formaldehyde tank with a shark or a urinal or a standard box of soap may push your sensory boundaries but I seem to have different boundaries, I accept those things as art and am not emotionally inspired over them but they do present novel viewpoints that seem worthwhile and offer avenues for exploration.

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