Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Use this forum to have philosophical discussions about aesthetics and art. What is art? What is beauty? What makes art good? You can also use this forum to discuss philosophy in the arts, namely to discuss the philosophical points in any particular movie, TV show, book or story.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Steve3007 »

It's been 60 years since the first release of the movie Psycho. I watched it again recently (as well as watching the weird scene-by-scene-almost-identical remake). It's been suggested that the two main characters in the movie (Marion and Norman) are mirrors of each other - that they are what Freud called uncanny doppelgängers. Perhaps the colour remake was supposed to be the uncanny doppelgänger of the original!

There is a lot to unpack, in relation to this idea, in the cinematography of Psycho, but is there anything philosophically interesting in this concept of the uncanny doppelgänger? Is there something in human psychology that sees this concept in a wide variety of concepts, from heaven and hell to matter and antimatter?
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Sculptor1 »

I'm sure if Hitchcock wanted to play with a Freudian idea then we would have heard about it.
What did he say about it?

You have to different things. The idea of the double and the idea of the uncanny.
They are not the same, nor do they seem to apply to Psycho. Since Bates and Crane are clearly opposites.
Bates stuck at home, male, neurotic, psychotic, cross dressing, and if you want to bring Freud in, the oedipus complex might be a better fit.

Crane is breaking out, on the run, adventurous, female, sef assured.

Screwed up dopplegangers don't f*ck their counterpart with a knife. This is all about surpressed sexuality.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Arjen »

Sculptor1 In many of Hitchkock's movies there are elements of Freud's work present. It is a known fact. That is actually what makes them so disturbing.

Steve3007
1) Well, the uncanny and the canny are a divide, which is actually about the same thing. The canny being the known part of oneself and the uncanny being the unknown part of oneself. Freud is ofcourse famous for his distinction into Ego, Superego and It (Self). So, the It is the known part and the unknown part is (a part of the It). The reason a part is not known in the ego, is because the super-ego makes a person want to believe good things about him- or herself. In order to explain for this lack in the image as compared to the real occurrences, because somebody must have done those things and that person apparently looks like me (ego), but I refuse to be like that (denial), a doppelganger is invented in the mind, to keep the ego closer to the super ego. In order to prevent a collapse of the psyche.

=====================================================================================================
If you need a further explanation of the terms or Freud's theories, just ask. Below I will continue into Lacan and the greater concept that you are looking for. If you need more information on those terms, just ask.
=====================================================================================================

2) As a rule, every person has, what Lacan calls a 'discourse' (=conversation) in the mind. This does not literally mean a conversation with oneself. However, every person responds to the people around. We dress in a way that we think others like, reconsider our opinions based on what we are receiving compliments or criticism on, etc. This is why Lacan calls this the discourse de l'autre (conversation with the other). The reality is that this is not a 'conversation' with a real other person. It is a conversation with ourselves, concerning what we think others say. So, there is a real other person, but the other that we are referring to is actually part of our own self. (quite Kantian in nature, actually). The same thing applies to ourselves. There is a real self and an image of what we think of ourselves.

So, the doppelganger is, in that sense, the fictional image of the other in our mind, while actually being part of ourselves that we can't accept (yet).

In a larger perspective, everything that is analysed can (or does) have these 3 sides:
- The actual thing that we are observing (noumenon, to speak in Kantian terms).
- The perspective that we know and accept concerning that (phenomenon, to speak in Kantian terms.).
- The perspective others (might) have and that we do not know or accept yet (other phenomena, to speak in Kantian terms).
Only when some the the other perspectives are also present in the same person, but are judged untrue or not accepted yet, so this can be a shadow, a doppelganger, or uncanny. It all refers to the same principle: the refutation of a perspective that entered into the mind and is actually true.

========================================================================================================
Untrue perspectives that a different particular place, but can be made to take the same place and completely alter the internal dynamics of an individual.... but therapy, will full corruption...but let's leave that out of this discussion. I hope that I was able to shed some light on this for you.
Just ask if more information is needed.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Sculptor1 »

Arjen wrote: October 12th, 2020, 3:01 am @Sculptor1 In many of Hitchkock's movies there are elements of Freud's work present. It is a known fact. That is actually what makes them so disturbing.
Does not mean that Hitchcock intended these elements - which do not seem to be present in this case.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Arjen »

He did, it is well known. In fact, Zizek writes about it in "how to read Lacan", but if you want, you can find it here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nconscious
There are actually many sources.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Steve3007 »

The argument that Norman is the uncanny doppelgänger of Marion is made very compellingly and interestingly, I think, in this short analysis:
Like most people (I suspect) I've seen this film numerous times before over the years and can't remember what it was like to see it for the first time, not knowing the plot in advance. But I don't think I'd noticed previously the obviousness of the parallels that Hitchcock creates, in his direction, between those two main characters. In particular, there's the parallel between the two "inner voice" scenes (Marion in the car and Norman at the end) in which they both hear the imagined voice of sexualized parental authority and they both do that smile into the camera when they think of how they've successfully deceived people (in Norman's case, thinking of that via the mother's personality). The composition of the scene in the cell at the end, with Norman to one side and a blank white wall to the right, also mirrors the shower scene.

Ever since the 1998 remake came out I'd been puzzled at the pointlessness of that exercise. Perhaps the makers of the remake really were having a joke with us in making a double of the original - almost identical yet completely lacking the magic of the original. A hideous, uncanny double.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Arjen »

The remakes are often like that. Th more intricate what we read, the more intricate the propaganda has to be. If we are never intellectually challenged, we would have a much harder time seeing through the cracks, so to speak.
[/paranoia] :lol:


Also: I remember seeing it for the first time, I did catch on to a link between the two, but not to the deeper meaning. Although I think there is a moment when someone talks to Marion about the mother. It might have been Norman, talking to himself about the mother, sort of. Or my memory is just wrong. :lol:
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Steve3007 »

Arjen wrote:Although I think there is a moment when someone talks to Marion about the mother. It might have been Norman, talking to himself about the mother, sort of.
You may be thinking of the pivotal scene in the parlor when Norman gives Marion a meal of sandwiches (mirroring the sandwiches at the very start of the film) and he talks to her about his mother and living in a trap or a cage. This is where we're shown what they have in common and it's part of what persuades Marion to go home, return the money and try to get back to the "light side", so to speak.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Arjen »

It might be. Perhaps I should arrange for some snacks and drink for a saturday night after my son is asleep to check it out again.
:)
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Steve3007 »

I recommend it!
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Arjen »

If you are interested, I can recommend Lacan and Zizek. They rely heavily on Freud. It is also very Kantian, if you are versed in it.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Steve3007 »

Thanks.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Arjen »

"How to read lacan" by Zizek is great, actually.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Sculptor1 »

Steve3007 wrote: October 12th, 2020, 8:22 am
This is a classic bit of overthinking.
It all assumes that Psycho is the work of one mind and one set of intentions, which it clearly is not.
Were Hitchcock to have written the book, the screenplay and directed the film you could possibly accept this analysis. However, all three rolls are taken by three DIFFERENT people. You might be able to glean some analysis from comparing differences, and changes. But this Vid takes no account of three minds at work.

What you actually have hear is a collection of psychobabble suggested by Zizeck and then embellished by whoever wrote the script for the video. I have a lot or resepct for Zizeck but the mobius strip idea is his, not Hitchcock's.

I also think the basement, groundfloor and first floor analogy with the ego, superego and ID, it pure fiction. What happens in these three places simply has no parallels with Freudian theory. It's fudge desigend to make the rest of the analysis seem more Freudian.

And if the mirror thing is a sign, why not put both Marion and Norman in the mirror. The mirror in my view is a simple device to double Marion's presence, since a fugitive needs to hide, this makes her more vulnerable.

Hitchock was a master and there is inevitably a host of stuff written about Psycho since it was a ground-breaking shocker. But without Hitcock to comment, it is all just hot air.
User avatar
Arjen
Posts: 467
Joined: January 16th, 2019, 4:53 am
Favorite Philosopher: Immanuel Kant

Re: Psycho and the the uncanny doppelgänger

Post by Arjen »

Arjen wrote: October 12th, 2020, 7:53 am He did, it is well known. In fact, Zizek writes about it in "how to read Lacan", but if you want, you can find it here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... nconscious
There are actually many sources.
Which makes your comment none sense.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant
Post Reply

Return to “Philosophy of the Arts and Philosophy in the Arts”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021