The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Use this forum to have philosophical discussions about aesthetics and art. What is art? What is beauty? What makes art good? You can also use this forum to discuss philosophy in the arts, namely to discuss the philosophical points in any particular movie, TV show, book or story.
Gertie
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Gertie »

Scott
Content free-spirited creativity emerges in the absence of enslaving moral law and other false idols. Nothing must be done that isn't done. Spiritual freedom is the source of true art and beauty. With spiritual freedom, the whole world may appear as an eternal work of beautiful art, inexorably perfect.


Art can certainly break boundaries, taboos and make us uncomfortable in ways which make us think and feel about things, about ourselves, in different ways. That's part of its appeal, a reason it exists, a way to express the unspeakable.


But morality isn't a false idol, and to reinterpret morality as aesthetics is a simple category error. Making a false idol of your own personal aesthetic isn't freedom, and freedom from morality isn't spiritual - it's psychopathy. The world isn't a perfect work of art, it wasn't created by an artist.

And you don't need to be amoral to create amoral art.

That's why we make a distinction between what is OK and valuable to express through art, and apply different judgements about what we actually do to each other. Because morality isn't aesthetics.
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Ecurb »

Scott wrote: February 28th, 2021, 11:35 pm

I not only agree fully with those statements, but to me those sentences and your post as whole are all poetry in and of themselves. :)

Thanks, Scott. The last 3/4 of my post is plagiarized from a column I wrote for publication, so I crafted it more carefully than I might have had it been a mere post on Philosophy Forum.
Tegularius: What is certainly not true is that we can see the wave of the future by looking into the past. We have no idea how the future will look especially now facing major climatic changes and species extinctions. These are not single events catastrophic as they are. Instead, they'll cause a crescendo of consequences like nothing encountered in the past. There are just too many black swans encircling the planet and everything on it which no-longer connects with the past to decrypt what the future will be like.
Of course we can't always see into the future, but when we can, it is only by looking at the past. What else is there to examine? The time of the sunrise and the motion of the planets can all be predicted, as can many other things. We can even create models about the impact of climate change. I'll grant that the future is always uncertain, but the waves continue to break into the shore, slowly eroding it.
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Tegularius »

Ecurb wrote: March 1st, 2021, 12:09 pm Of course we can't always see into the future, but when we can, it is only by looking at the past. What else is there to examine?
When the future becomes the present, the past is merely a matter of hindsight and analysis of how it all happened.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Count Lucanor »

Scott wrote: February 28th, 2021, 11:35 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: February 28th, 2021, 2:53 pm I find it very hard to conciliate these two concepts: discipline and freedom, and that these words could be used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous
Count Lucanor wrote: February 27th, 2021, 11:29 am People always find themselves thrown into the world, their existence is inexorably tied to it. No one lives in a bubble of their own self. Both discipline and freedom...
To clarify, I am not saying I use the words "freedom" and "discipline" interchangeably (i.e. as synonyms), but rather I am saying that I use the terms "spiritual freedom" and "self-discipline" interchangeably (i.e. as synonyms).

I don't understand what you mean here. Are you using the word discipline to refer to "self-discipline" and the word "freedom" to refer to "spiritual freedom", which to me are synonymous, or are you using the words "discipline" and "freedom" to refer to something else? If so, what is that something else?
I understood it was not your precise selection of words, but I stripped off "spiritual" and "self" from the terms you used. Those two could be used interchangeably, so you could have said spiritual discipline and self-freedom, without sacrificing the intended meaning. The spiritual in spiritual freedom implies the self, while the self in self-discipline implies the person's spirit. So, the true essential concepts are freedom and discipline, which can not be used interchangeably.
Scott wrote: February 28th, 2021, 11:35 pm If you maybe suspect you are not understanding what I mean by "self-discipline"/"spiritual freedom" (two phrases I use to refer to the same exact thing), please see my topic, Man Is Not Fit to Govern Man: My Philosophy of Non-Violence, Self-Government, Self-Discipline, and Spiritual Freedom. Using the analogue of self-government in terms of political freedom, I think that topic might better explain how I use the terms in question.
I'm confident that I understood what you meant, but I cannot see those terms as synonymous. Surely, we can find a relationship in the sense that for our own good, it is required that one's freedom is controlled or managed, and that management can be done by oneself, instead of delegating the task to a social authority. It is the old call for regulating yourself, so the government doesn't do it for you. We can call that "discipline". But the world constantly offers a lot of other constraints not related to social authority, nor related to limits put to our self-governance. People are neither absolutely free, nor exempt of having to submit and discipline themselves to accept and manage those constraints that the world imposes on us.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by baker »

Scott wrote: February 28th, 2021, 11:35 pm
baker wrote: February 28th, 2021, 9:15 am I'll put it this way:
Where do you get your creative spiritual ideas from?
Do you read what other people have written? Do you take their ideas and internalize them? Have you done this in the past, and do you intend to do that in the future?
I am not sure what you mean by "creative spiritual ideas". Can you explain what you mean a bit to me?
In an effort to be concise, I'd just like to hear your reply to my question earlier (this should then also address your question):

Do you read what other people have written? Do you take their ideas and internalize them? Have you done this in the past, and do you intend to do that in the future?
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

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Tegularius wrote: March 1st, 2021, 5:37 amWhat is certainly not true is that we can see the wave of the future by looking into the past. We have no idea how the future will look especially now facing major climatic changes and species extinctions. These are not single events catastrophic as they are. Instead, they'll cause a crescendo of consequences like nothing encountered in the past. There are just too many black swans encircling the planet and everything on it which no-longer connects with the past to decrypt what the future will be like.
I think the geologists might point to a few events in the past that will make the extinction of the human race pretty small beer, [hint the Jurassic extinction of the dinosaurs only comes fourth in the list] but fret not the bacteria will survive.
Tegularius wrote: March 1st, 2021, 5:37 amWe may also arrive at a period when our own massive failures will reveal just how ludicrous the human soul fantasy is and always was.
I'm pretty sure we will arrive, but the big reveal will be spoiled by virtually all of us being dead and the last few to die will probably have made up some religious excuse for what's happening so it definitely isn't our fault.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Tegularius »

Mark1955 wrote: March 10th, 2021, 6:03 am
Tegularius wrote: March 1st, 2021, 5:37 amWhat is certainly not true is that we can see the wave of the future by looking into the past. We have no idea how the future will look especially now facing major climatic changes and species extinctions. These are not single events catastrophic as they are. Instead, they'll cause a crescendo of consequences like nothing encountered in the past. There are just too many black swans encircling the planet and everything on it which no-longer connects with the past to decrypt what the future will be like.
I think the geologists might point to a few events in the past that will make the extinction of the human race pretty small beer, [hint the Jurassic extinction of the dinosaurs only comes fourth in the list] but fret not the bacteria will survive.
The human race is too obnoxious, too classless, too ornery to go extinct. Like cockroaches, they'll survive no matter how desperate the conditions and still claim a soul in the process. We started as garbage and we're still no better off.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Ecurb »

Tegularius wrote: March 12th, 2021, 3:01 am

The human race is too obnoxious, too classless, too ornery to go extinct. Like cockroaches, they'll survive no matter how desperate the conditions and still claim a soul in the process. We started as garbage and we're still no better off.
That may be true of you and me, Tegulaius, but it certainly isn't true of my friends and family. When you write such things you appear to think that everyone is as "obnoxious, classless and ornery" as you are. You are wrong about others, although, based on this post, correct about yourself.
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Tegularius »

Ecurb wrote: March 12th, 2021, 2:15 pm
Tegularius wrote: March 12th, 2021, 3:01 am

The human race is too obnoxious, too classless, too ornery to go extinct. Like cockroaches, they'll survive no matter how desperate the conditions and still claim a soul in the process. We started as garbage and we're still no better off.
That may be true of you and me, Tegulaius, but it certainly isn't true of my friends and family. When you write such things you appear to think that everyone is as "obnoxious, classless and ornery" as you are. You are wrong about others, although, based on this post, correct about yourself.
That may be true of you, you're friends and family, as far as you know but when you average out all the good and bad in history humans appear as a monster species. All the insipid sentimentality people like to apply to themselves proclaiming their goodness, their superiority is nothing more than illusion, hypocrisy, deceit, qualities required to transform what is inherently disgusting into a creature with a soul.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

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Tegularius wrote: March 12th, 2021, 6:29 pm
That may be true of you, you're friends and family, as far as you know but when you average out all the good and bad in history humans appear as a monster species. All the insipid sentimentality people like to apply to themselves proclaiming their goodness, their superiority is nothing more than illusion, hypocrisy, deceit, qualities required to transform what is inherently disgusting into a creature with a soul.
You're in good company; Hamlet both agrees and argues with you. Every one knows the "what a piece of work" part of the quote, but I like the first part, responding to Guildenstern's question. The last sentence, which refers to Guildenstern's hints at Hamlet's disapointment in romance is also great.
I have of late—but wherefore I know not—lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises, and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory; this most excellent canopy, the air—look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire—why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors. What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world. The paragon of animals. And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me. No, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
"In apprehension how like a god."
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Tegularius »

Ecurb wrote: March 12th, 2021, 11:32 pm
Tegularius wrote: March 12th, 2021, 6:29 pm
That may be true of you, you're friends and family, as far as you know but when you average out all the good and bad in history humans appear as a monster species. All the insipid sentimentality people like to apply to themselves proclaiming their goodness, their superiority is nothing more than illusion, hypocrisy, deceit, qualities required to transform what is inherently disgusting into a creature with a soul.
You're in good company; Hamlet both agrees and argues with you. Every one knows the "what a piece of work" part of the quote, but I like the first part, responding to Guildenstern's question. The last sentence, which refers to Guildenstern's hints at Hamlet's disapointment in romance is also great.
I have of late—but wherefore I know not—lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises, and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory; this most excellent canopy, the air—look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire—why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilent congregation of vapors. What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty! In form and moving how express and admirable! In action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world. The paragon of animals. And yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me. No, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so.
"In apprehension how like a god."
I'm sure you know that Shakespeare lived during the Renaissance when man was truly subsumed to be the measure of all things perhaps best symbolized in Leonardo's Vitruvian Man. Within that context, "In apprehension how like a god", certainly fits the age. Subsequent ages however have invalidated that idea.

A more realistic version of the true nature of man is summarized in the final quatrain of a poem called A Short Essay on Man...

But what followed the creation
of the lesser angel man?
No tragedy before or after
only a farce that long began.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Gertie wrote: March 1st, 2021, 11:38 am But morality isn't a false idol
I respectfully disagree. I see absolutely no evidence that some kind of moral law exists. At best, it's existence is as believable as unicorns and the tooth fairy.

In my spiritual philosophy, there are no shoulds or oughts (and no vampires, fairies, or Loch Ness Monsters).

I don't believe in supernatural or paranormal things. I exercise Occam's Razor (i.e. parsimony).
Gertie wrote: March 1st, 2021, 11:38 amfreedom from morality isn't spiritual - it's psychopathy.
Again, I respectfully disagree.

Psychopathy is primarily defined by the lack of empathy.

If a person treats other humans kindly because one has empathy for those other humans (or animals) and/or because one loves those other humans (or animals), then one is not a psychopath.

If one lacks empathy but treats other humans kindly due to some religious-like belief that there is a supernatural law to obey (defining what a person "should" do), then that person is a psychopath.

For example, and this is just one example of many, imagine there is a man named Edward Empathyless who believes there is a a god who will reward him with a heavenly afterlife if he behaves in a seemingly kind way to his fellow human. Edward Empathyless has no empathy for others but out of selfishness he wants to get into heaven, so he mimics the 'good' behavior of what he thinks an empathetic individual would do to earn a spot in heaven. Edward is a psychopath.

Even if one doesn't believe in god, the same logical formula is at play for godless morality. The same logic is at play if someone believes in some kind of mystical rules acting as some of kind metaphysical law called morality, presumably without any real evidence.

Regardless of whether there is such a metaphysical law or not (I believe there is not), if one only treats others kindly (or seemingly kindly) merely because they want to earn the favor of that law and not be a criminal/baddie under that mystical law, then one is a psychopath.

If one needs morality or god to behave kindly, then one is a psychopath.

In contrast, if one treats others kindly or lovingly because one has empathy, then one is not a psychopath.

Granted, the illusion of morality could be a useful tool to trick psychopaths into behaving kindly, getting them to mimic empathetic behavior under the delusion of morality existing.

Gertie wrote: March 1st, 2021, 11:38 am The world [...] wasn't created by an artist.
Perhaps that depends what you mean by created. It is shaped at least in part by the decisions of artists and consciously creative entities. When a sculptor sculpts a huge boulder that he found by chipping away at it to mold it into the image of a person, would you say the resulting sculpture is something he created? It was created by reshaping pre-existing materials, particularly via removal; is the end result still created by the artist? If so, then indeed the world is likewise created by artists.

The world we see, especially here on Earth, is clearly shaped by the existence of consciousness, including but not limited to conscious will and conscious creativity.

The extent of that shaping is debatable. Some may think it is very minor like a child painting eyes on a pet rock; some may think it is more major as with the cities I used to build in SimCity as a kid, reflecting much more conscious willful creation than happenstance. The degree of that extent one will tend to see depends in part by how one answers the Observer Problem and by one's chosen interpretation of quantum mechanics, all of which is very debatable and very open to interpretation. For example, and again this is just one example of countless, a person will have a very different view on the matter if they believe the Big Bang currently exists in a superposition of many different coherent histories, rather than in a singular fully wave-collapsed Newtonian-like state.

Gertie wrote: March 1st, 2021, 11:38 am Because morality isn't aesthetics.
I agree that morality isn't aesthetics. Aesthetics exist. Morality doesn't. Therefore, they are different.


***

Scott wrote: February 28th, 2021, 11:35 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: February 28th, 2021, 2:53 pm I find it very hard to conciliate these two concepts: discipline and freedom, and that these words could be used interchangeably, as if they were synonymous
Count Lucanor wrote: February 27th, 2021, 11:29 am People always find themselves thrown into the world, their existence is inexorably tied to it. No one lives in a bubble of their own self. Both discipline and freedom...
To clarify, I am not saying I use the words "freedom" and "discipline" interchangeably (i.e. as synonyms), but rather I am saying that I use the terms "spiritual freedom" and "self-discipline" interchangeably (i.e. as synonyms).

I don't understand what you mean here. Are you using the word discipline to refer to "self-discipline" and the word "freedom" to refer to "spiritual freedom", which to me are synonymous, or are you using the words "discipline" and "freedom" to refer to something else? If so, what is that something else?
Count Lucanor wrote: March 1st, 2021, 10:38 pmI understood it was not your precise selection of words, but I stripped off "spiritual" and "self" from the terms you used. Those two could be used interchangeably, so you could have said spiritual discipline and self-freedom, without sacrificing the intended meaning. The spiritual in spiritual freedom implies the self, while the self in self-discipline implies the person's spirit. So, the true essential concepts are freedom and discipline, which can not be used interchangeably.
In the way I use the terms, you can use the concept of spirit and of true self interchangeably.

But you can not strip the spiritual/self from the phrases self-discipline and spiritual freedom and maintain the synonymous of the meaning.

In the way I use the terms, spiritual freedom is interchangeable with self-discipline.

In the way I use the terms, freedom is not interchangeable with discipline.

In the way I use the terms political freedom is interchangeable with self-government.

In the way I use the terms, freedom is not interchangeable with government.

The use of a hyphen in the nouns is important, versus the use of an adjective preceding the noun with no hyphen. It is not the same to take away an adjective as it is to take away half of a hyphenated noun.


Scott wrote: February 28th, 2021, 11:35 pm If you maybe suspect you are not understanding what I mean by "self-discipline"/"spiritual freedom" (two phrases I use to refer to the same exact thing), please see my topic, Man Is Not Fit to Govern Man: My Philosophy of Non-Violence, Self-Government, Self-Discipline, and Spiritual Freedom. Using the analogue of self-government in terms of political freedom, I think that topic might better explain how I use the terms in question.
Count Lucanor wrote: March 1st, 2021, 10:38 pmI'm confident that I understood what you meant, but I cannot see those terms as synonymous.
It's totally fine if you don't use the words the same as I do. I can use two words synonymously and you can use them differently. I can use the word desert to only refer to delicious food and never use it to refer to sandy dry hot places, and you can do vice versa, and neither of us is wrong. A British friend of mine told me that in her country they use the word 'quite' to mean the exact opposite of what we use it to mean here in my home state of Connecticut. That doesn't mean one of us is wrong; rather, it's just the way words are: equivocal.

A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

I think we can agree that what matters is that you understand what I mean by the words as I use the words I use, and that I understand what you mean by the words as you use the words that you use.

If you don't think the phrases political freedom and self-government are essentially synonymous, I invite you to give the definition you use for each of those two phrases in my other topic: Man Is Not Fit to Govern Man

The narrower field of political freedom in particular can be a useful analogue for the broader matter of spiritual freedom in general.

***

baker wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 12:00 am Do you read what other people have written? Do you take their ideas and internalize them? Have you done this in the past, and do you intend to do that in the future?
I believe my answer to all four questions is yes.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

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Scott wrote: March 18th, 2021, 6:34 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: March 1st, 2021, 10:38 pmI understood it was not your precise selection of words, but I stripped off "spiritual" and "self" from the terms you used. Those two could be used interchangeably, so you could have said spiritual discipline and self-freedom, without sacrificing the intended meaning. The spiritual in spiritual freedom implies the self, while the self in self-discipline implies the person's spirit. So, the true essential concepts are freedom and discipline, which can not be used interchangeably.
In the way I use the terms, you can use the concept of spirit and of true self interchangeably.

But you can not strip the spiritual/self from the phrases self-discipline and spiritual freedom and maintain the synonymous of the meaning.
If self and spirit are synonymous they can be used interchangeably, regardless of being linked to nouns that have different meanings. The two different meanings are maintained even when you interchange these words (self and spirit). Since that makes no difference in the meaning, they are accessory, and one can focus on the essential concept: freedom and discipline. If we have a fast car and a speedy motorcycle, it makes little difference to rephrase it as a speedy car and a fast motorcycle, and when it comes to looking at the essential relationships between the two concepts, what matters is that one is a car and the other a motorcycle, regardless of how fast they both run.
Scott wrote: March 18th, 2021, 6:34 pm I think we can agree that what matters is that you understand what I mean by the words as I use the words I use, and that I understand what you mean by the words as you use the words that you use.

If you don't think the phrases political freedom and self-government are essentially synonymous, I invite you to give the definition you use for each of those two phrases in my other topic: Man Is Not Fit to Govern Man

The narrower field of political freedom in particular can be a useful analogue for the broader matter of spiritual freedom in general.
I will want to do that, but before going any further, I must say that what we discussed about the relationship between spiritual freedom and self-discipline does not correspond exactly to the relationship between political freedom and self-government. We might have another difference of understanding in what is conveyed by political freedom and spiritual freedom, since political seems to refer to the social being, while spiritual to the individual being, the first one being the broader field of collective life and the latter the particular, narrower field of individual life.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
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Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

Count Lucanor wrote: March 18th, 2021, 11:32 pm
Scott wrote: March 18th, 2021, 6:34 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: March 1st, 2021, 10:38 pmI understood it was not your precise selection of words, but I stripped off "spiritual" and "self" from the terms you used. Those two could be used interchangeably, so you could have said spiritual discipline and self-freedom, without sacrificing the intended meaning. The spiritual in spiritual freedom implies the self, while the self in self-discipline implies the person's spirit. So, the true essential concepts are freedom and discipline, which can not be used interchangeably.
In the way I use the terms, you can use the concept of spirit and of true self interchangeably.

But you can not strip the spiritual/self from the phrases self-discipline and spiritual freedom and maintain the synonymous of the meaning.
If self and spirit are synonymous they can be used interchangeably, regardless of being linked to nouns that have different meanings. The two different meanings are maintained even when you interchange these words (self and spirit). Since that makes no difference in the meaning, they are accessory, and one can focus on the essential concept: freedom and discipline.
No, I think that's a non-sequitur.

In first two sentences, you point out that the words spirit and true self are interchangeable words, which is fine. However, your next statement in red does not logically follow from that.

As we use the terms, self-related freedom (i.e. freedom related to the self) is equal to self-discipline. It does not logically follow that freedom is equal to discipline.

Count Lucanor wrote: March 18th, 2021, 11:32 pm If we have a fast car and a speedy motorcycle[...]
This analogy doesn't apply because fast and speedy are both being used as adjectives.




Scott wrote: March 18th, 2021, 6:34 pm I think we can agree that what matters is that you understand what I mean by the words as I use the words I use, and that I understand what you mean by the words as you use the words that you use.

If you don't think the phrases political freedom and self-government are essentially synonymous, I invite you to give the definition you use for each of those two phrases in my other topic: Man Is Not Fit to Govern Man

The narrower field of political freedom in particular can be a useful analogue for the broader matter of spiritual freedom in general.
Count Lucanor wrote: March 18th, 2021, 11:32 pmI will want to do that, but before going any further, I must say that what we discussed about the relationship between spiritual freedom and self-discipline does not correspond exactly to the relationship between political freedom and self-government.
That's very possible, but starting with agreeing how to use the allegedly synonymous words political freedom and self-government will be revealing about such syntax in general. Namely, it will be revealing and helpful to see if we can agree that the phrases political freedom and self-government being interchangeable does not mean that the words freedom and government must be interchangeable.

Count Lucanor wrote: March 18th, 2021, 11:32 pm We might have another difference of understanding in what is conveyed by political freedom and spiritual freedom, since political seems to refer to the social being, while spiritual to the individual being, the first one being the broader field of collective life and the latter the particular, narrower field of individual life.
I agree that it often seems to play out like that in practice, meaning politics seems to deal a lot more with what goes on in public involving interactions between humans while spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) seems like it might be more involved with, for instance, what I do in my backyard alone by myself.

Despite often playing out like that superficially in practice, philosophically speaking my philosophy would actually generally have the opposite be the case, as I see it. My political philosophy manifests in many ways that firmly respect individual independence, a fundamental individualism which results from no human governing another human (at least insofar as they are both adults capable of informed competent consent). If cooperation isn't forced (i.e. there is no slavery) then that ipso facto entails a certain respect and allowance for individualism in various social, political, and economic ways.

In contrast, in my spiritual philosophy I believe that we are all essentially one. In other words, fundamentally, assuming neither of us is a philosophical zombie, then I believe my spirit and your spirit are one in the same. Likewise, and to the same degree, no more and no less, I think 10-year-old Scott's spirit and 50-year-old Scott's spirit (if he lives that long) are one in the same, along with my present spirit and your spirit. As I see it, across all of spacetime, there is a shared thing between all non-zombies that we call 'consciousness' or 'spirit' that is us.

Perhaps, political freedom tends toward political individualism while political non-freedom tends towards excessive chaotic/violent/discontent entanglement (wars, conquest, overcrowded prisons, governments literally spending trillions and trillions per year via complex bloated bureaucratic systems and overly complex shell games, etc). Spiritual freedom may tend towards kindness and unity while its opposite--epitomized by addiction such as alcoholism--would tend towards loneliness, spiritual isolation, egoic selfishness, and discontent egoic self-centeredness.

Maybe it's ironic but indeed it seems that spiritually seeing other humans as our spiritual equals ("all men are created equal" etc.) results politically in the political field as political freedom which entails the individualism of no human ruling another, of no race being the superior race, of no class of humans being a noble ruling class ruling over alleged inferiors.

Nonetheless, to get back to the issue of syntax and vocabulary, those tendencies regarding how things tend to manifest in everyday human practice are presumably merely tendencies. Ideally, we can still fairly easily agree on some vocab regardless.
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Tegularius
Posts: 711
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: The artistically creative diversity of spiritual freedom

Post by Tegularius »

To be artistically creative does not require spiritual freedom - whatever that's supposed to mean. Having a sense of spiritual freedom or something that feels like it, does not in any way imply or include artistic creativity. There's zero connection between the two.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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