Religion is an art from

[athena]

I immediately thought of the Christian dramas that are so moving, sometimes they make me want to be Christian. I think movies such as these, if done for Islam, would also make me consider being a Muslim, because it is the drama of these stories that appeals to us and makes us want to unite with the religion. Billy Graham did such a dramatic show about God wanting young men to join the war in Iraq, I felt like signing up for military service.

. The Gospel of John DVD ~ Henry Ian Cusick
The list author says:
"3-hour, high-quality word-for-word dramatization of the Gospel of John; helpful for insight and retention, getting a strong grip on this important book."

The Moment After - DVD
7. The Moment After - DVD DVD ~ David White, Brad Heller Kevin Downes
The list author says:
"A favorite; though low-budget, this endtimes drama has a multifaceted and suspenseful story, and is evangelistic without being preachy. Title refers to events and responses within a few months after the rapture.

Beyond the Gates of Splendor
8. Beyond the Gates of Splendor DVD ~ Steve Saint
The list author says:
"Shockingly moving Christian documentary that's much more than an account of the famous 20th century martyrdom of 5 missionaries to Ecuador. The power of Christ is on display thru interviews with friends and widows, moving and still photography, and anthropologists discussing the Waodani tribe."

Unlocking The Mystery Of Life
9. Unlocking The Mystery Of Life DVD ~ Jay Richards
The list author says:
"Computer animated science DVD that focuses on the tiny, looking into the cell and its irreducible complexity as support for intelligent design."

Sophie Scholl - The Final Days
11. Sophie Scholl - The Final Days DVD ~ Julia Jentsch
The list author says:
"Docu-drama primarily about Munich Univ student Sophie Scholl, though also shows the efforts of others, who resisted the Nazis. Scholl was one of the relatively few Protestants who actively resisted Hitler. In her case her words were her weapon. She refused to betray her conscience and was beheaded. Acting flawless. For teens and up."

The Gospel (Special Edition)
12. The Gospel (Special Edition) DVD ~ Omar Gooding
The list author says:
"So-so story about personal waywardness, church dysfunction, and redemption pulled up to 5-star quality because lots of awesome music sung by megastars. (warning: brief scenes depicting worldly realities like club scene, sensual music, skimpy clothes, fighting.)"


The League of Grateful Sons
16. The League of Grateful Sons DVD ~ Doug Phillips
The list author says:
"This documentary is a thank you to WWII vets and everything their generation represented; it largely consists of following a group of relatives and admirers of WWII heroes who journey with surviving vets back to Iwo Jima. Much about fatherhood, godly manhood, God's providence, passing the torch, and legacy."

Midnight Clear (short film)
17. Midnight Clear (short film) DVD ~ Jerry B. Jenkins
The list author says:
"Not a full-length film, more of a prompter for conversation and thought. Well-acted, touching story showing how seemingly insignificant words and gestures can have impact, even life-saving impact. Stephen Baldwin stars."

Joseph (The Bible Collection)
18. Joseph (The Bible Collection) DVD ~ Ben Kingsley
The list author says:
"Joseph is by far the overall best and most biblically faithful of The Bible Collection character dramas, with the possible exception being Jeremiah, since I have not seen that one and can't say."

[Belinda]

I wonder if Athena is claiming that film plays and documentaries that work on emotions are all classifiabe as art. If she is saying this, would Athena also classify that one about the torture of Jesus as art?I forget the name of the name of the film. Mel somebody was in it as Jesus all covered in blood.

[boagie]

This is an interesting topic, "On life's vast ocean of diversely we sail. Reasons the card, but passion the gale."
Alexander Pope

In speaking to religious friends they refuse across the board to acknowledge the irrational nature of their beliefs, yet cannot or will not provide me with a rational explanation of how they got there. At the same time they take offense at the suggestion that religion is fundamentally emotionally based.

There are two possiable interpretations of the relations between the physical world as object and that of a conscious biology as subject. That is attraction and repulsion through emotion or, understanding, but understanding needs the experience of a real object, for as Spinoza pointed out, we can only know those objects which modify the mind through the body. I don't know, does not the complete rejection by the religious of the possiablity of trying to understand the nature of religious belief on a rational and/or emotional basis support the belief that it is most certainly emotional and which never does find its object in the real world.

[Belinda]

I note that boagie calls what he/she is discussing 'religious belief'. This is correct, for there are many ways of being religious or of getting religous experiences that have nothing to do with believing stuff.
I think most of us philosophers are unfortunate in that our religious friends tend to not also be sceptical philosophers.Passion may be the gale for them but for many of them their sailing craft are unresponsive to the rudders of reason.

for as Spinoza pointed out, we can only know those objects which modify the mind through the body.

Yes!

I don't know, does not the complete rejection by the religious of the possiablity of trying to understand the nature of religious belief on a rational and/or emotional basis support the belief that it is most certainly emotional and which never does find its object in the real world

I personally have what may easily be called 'a religious attitude'towards Spinoza's philosophy. Yet Spinoza is so rational that modern scientists are pretty solidly behind him if the scientists in question have read and understood Spinoza.

I think though that boagierefers here to those religionists who believe that there is a Being who consciously planned, created, and maintains the world of reality.Such people would possibly not regard my attitude as religious at all.I agree with boagie that religion is emotionally based. I answer 'yes' to boagie's question. Boagie's observation has issues in social control, in personal growth and wellbeing, in the future existence of Abrahamic religions, and in education.

[boagie]

Hi Belinda,

What a delight to be understood so perfectly, thanks for that affirmation. As to religion being an art form based upon the quality of its emotional base, I am not really sure of. Even art is not devoid of reason, so religion as an art form cannot be said to be characteristic of one property. There is a reasonablness and logic which is realized within the text of scripture itself, it may not agree with objective reality but agrees with the reality it has created within the text itself, the metaphors as notes complimenting one another and can seem reasonable only to those tone deaf to objective reality itself.

If art is to be thought of as biological extention, which is my own tendency, it must necessarily be fully expressive of that biology in all its complexity, not limited in catagory. The irrational is an essential part of what we are and in religion it is dominant, within its own text it is reasonable, in that it agrees with itself it creates a contained continuity, it just does not agree with objective reality.

Does religion not represent through dogma a closed system, if so it is by defination unnatural, and must necessarily be anti-life, lacking the vitality of change,imagination and adaptation. If this is true I would say it is not art. Religion displays qualities that biological life itself does not, unchanging duration, lack of imagination and vitality, quite different qualities possessed by that of art. That said, art itself might be considered a spiritual medium superior to that of established organized religions.

[Belinda]

If art is to be thought of as biological extention, which is my own tendency, it must necessarily be fully expressive of that biology in all its complexity, not limited in catagory. The irrational is an essential part of what we are and in religion it is dominant, within its own text it is reasonable, in that it agrees with itself it creates a contained continuity, it just does not agree with objective reality.

(boagie)
I too think of art as biological extension ,as I think of everything else, including morality.

My original claim ,apart from containing no typing error should have read 'Ought we to regard religion as an art form?'A much more sensible question. I agree with you about the status of the irrational.

[boagie]

I too think of art as biological extension ,as I think of everything else, including morality.

My original claim ,apart from containing no typing error should have read 'Ought we to regard religion as an art form?'A much more sensible question. I agree with you about the status of the irrational.[/quote]


Yes this extension business though is not right up front for most people. Why it would not be is a puzzle, for it is as much a biological expression for the artist as it is for the indiviudal deriving pleasure from said object of art. Actually I have seen examples of art which express for lack of a better analogy ill health, this can be expressed in clashing colours, disorder, lack of proportion, imbalance ect.

I heard someone say one time that art speaks directly to the order of which is your own biology, the order of your own being, which makes me wonder, if you are ill, could it be that you are less able to appreciate art? Is not beauty itself an expression of order in all its veryeous aspects, that which is ugly, the degree of its disorder. What makes people see certain creatures as ugly, when in fact their arrangement is perfectly ordered, a rather good example of near perfection of form and function?

[Belinda]

Some people think that God is defined as that which makes order out of chaos.The spirit that moved over the waters (Genesis)Yes, I'd define art like that.In this case religion is a subset of art, insofar as religion is free from coercion.

[boagie]

Some people think that God is defined as that which makes order out of chaos.The spirit that moved over the waters (Genesis)Yes, I'd define art like that.In this case religion is a subset of art, insofar as religion is free from coercion.

Hi Belinda,

I am guessing that misinterpretation of spiritual symbology does not count as coercion-----yes? Because it does not come from without?

My favorite definition of religion is "a misinterpretation of mythology." The misinterpretation consists precisely in attributing historical references to symbols which properly are spiritual in their reference. -- Joseph Campbell

A dream is a private mythology, myth/religion is a public dream. Both in the individual and in the collective they are products of a collective consciousness. I suppose you have something here, this is the place out of which creativity comes.

[Belinda]

Boagie, I think I will have to retract what I wrote about coercion which comes in many forms. Authoritarian regimes of political and religious masters have not stopped lovely works of art. Some people even like Soviet art, or Nazi art.Then there are the old masters who painted religious scenes to order. Church music that kept closely to the stipulated forms.Art thrived even in medieval Europe.

This is a good working definition of religion that you quoted from Joseph Campbell: attributing historical references to symbols which properly are spiritual in their reference.
The usual error I see is confusing the historical Jesus with the Christ of faith.The Christ of faith is spiritual not historical.

Art is creativity in action, yes.
Both art and religion are subsumed under human biology.
I was wrong about coercion though. Art can flourish under the strictures of religious and even political systems.
I think that some religious experiences can fairly also be described as artistic experiences. In particular experiences involving symbols taken as symbols, and not as history.

[boagie]

Quote="Belinda"]Boagie, I think I will have to retract what I wrote about coercion which comes in many forms. Authoritarian regimes of political and religious masters have not stopped lovely works of art. Some people even like Soviet art, or Nazi art. Then there are the old masters who painted religious scenes to order. Church music that kept closely to the stipulated forms.Art thrived even in medieval Europe.”

Belinda,

Art restricted though would be in serves to those Authoritarian systems. It would not be in a sense free to inform or instruct. I am thinking of the paintings of those times, religious themes, still life’s and landscapes though skilled in their craft, they were necessarily inhibited. With the philosophy of the day one I am sure had to round off ones thoughts with god as the governing and determining factor. Oppression is oppression of biology of biological expression whether it is political or religious or politically religious.

“This is a good working definition of religion that you quoted from Joseph Campbell: attributing historical references to symbols which properly are spiritual in their reference.
The usual error I see is confusing the historical Jesus with the Christ of faith. The Christ of faith is spiritual not historical.” quote

In the west though even today, the religious would not be happy with the unconcretized symbol, they wish their idea of divinity to be substantial, basically an idol. For as Meister Eckhart stated, one must go passed the image of god. Then again, Campbell often said literalism kills the message. Eckhart to said, if I recall properly, that the best name for god is compassion, of course the church put out a contract on his life, but he died of natural causes before they could take their revenge.

“Art is creativity in action, yes.
Both art and religion are subsumed under human biology.
I was wrong about coercion though. Art can flourish under the strictures of religious and even political systems.
I think that some religious experiences can fairly also be described as artistic experiences. In particular experiences involving symbols taken as symbols, and not as history.[/quote]


I do not fully understand but I suspect you are right in the above statement, for it comes out of a biological earning, perhaps from the same place in the psyche.