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The Myth of Lilth and Eve: Adams Patronage

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Marabod
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Post by Marabod » March 30th, 2010, 3:41 pm

Belinda wrote:If Lilith is associated with owls, then is Lilith a form of Athena? Wisdom? Is the wisdom tradition in the OT sometimes decried. The wisdom book of Ecclesiates is too much of a good thing for the priesthood, perhaps?
It seems to be more simple, Belinda. The call of this night bird, a screech owl, was scaring people amid the night, so in their superstitiousness they assigned this sound to the demon, known from Babylonian religion. This Lilith demon must have been known to Hittites, and many Hittites re-settled to Canaan and were living among Israelites and blending with them - just recall the story of David's friend and servant Uriah the Hittite.

The legend of Lilith is a very late one, it is not coming from the early biblical times, but the superstitions about demonic nature of the screech owl can be very ancient. I would not be looking for the connection with Athena on this, as owls independently are symbol of wisdom and witchery in many Indo-European cultures, this is caused by the mystery of their modus vivendi and their night activity, including the ability to see in the darkness.

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Post by Sherizzle » March 30th, 2010, 6:11 pm

Marabod wrote:
Belinda wrote:If Lilith is associated with owls, then is Lilith a form of Athena? Wisdom? Is the wisdom tradition in the OT sometimes decried. The wisdom book of Ecclesiates is too much of a good thing for the priesthood, perhaps?
It seems to be more simple, Belinda. The call of this night bird, a screech owl, was scaring people amid the night, so in their superstitiousness they assigned this sound to the demon, known from Babylonian religion. This Lilith demon must have been known to Hittites, and many Hittites re-settled to Canaan and were living among Israelites and blending with them - just recall the story of David's friend and servant Uriah the Hittite.

The legend of Lilith is a very late one, it is not coming from the early biblical times, but the superstitions about demonic nature of the screech owl can be very ancient. I would not be looking for the connection with Athena on this, as owls independently are symbol of wisdom and witchery in many Indo-European cultures, this is caused by the mystery of their modus vivendi and their night activity, including the ability to see in the darkness.
Very interesting posts Ant,I think you are correct on the value of a role based on really putting food on the table.

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Post by Marabod » March 31st, 2010, 1:04 am

Yes, Sheri, food on the table, day to day... But I cannot expand on this, as the OP would then report me as posting off-topic :lol:

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Post by Belinda » March 31st, 2010, 8:16 am

Marabod #16

I accept your further explanation, and remain fascinated by the subject of the little Grey owl of Syria and the Middle East.This fear of the owl and her call, the legend and your gloss on it, almost gives the lie to the notion that we cannot enter into the feelings of people long dead.



BTW the Scottish Gaelic for 'grey'(liadh) sounds remarkably like the 'lil' prefix.
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Post by Marabod » March 31st, 2010, 4:56 pm

Belinda wrote:Marabod #16

I accept your further explanation, and remain fascinated by the subject of the little Grey owl of Syria and the Middle East.This fear of the owl and her call, the legend and your gloss on it, almost gives the lie to the notion that we cannot enter into the feelings of people long dead.



BTW the Scottish Gaelic for 'grey'(liadh) sounds remarkably like the 'lil' prefix.
But, Belinda - the people never changed! We are today exactly the same as we were 3000 years ago. We also have terrible fears before anything unknown, it is just we have much less of this "unknown" around us! I think anyone can "feel" what the neanderthals were feeling, it is enough to imagine oneself in their shoes, no discovery channel. Say, you sit in a cave in absolute darkness, and suddenly you hear some terrible inhuman screaming at the entry...You come out in trembling and with your club ready - but there is no one! Of course one would invent a demon. And if such scary sound provoked pregnancy abortion in your missus, or she stopped lactating and your baby died starving, then this demon would be a child killer!

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Post by Belinda » April 1st, 2010, 7:57 am

You almost have me persuaded Marabod, about how we can feel the same as the old people long dead. Only evidence to the contrary would un-persuade me.
BTW what about entering into the feelings of certain sub -classes of contemporary people such as for instance the Cosa Nostra sub-group?'My guess is that there are certain human universal constants. It is those that we need to find out. The universal constant you describe above with reference to owls' intrinsic haunting quality probably has evidence in the historical and anthropological literature.

****************
Stormeyy wrote to Marabod
We are not discussing inherant impotent quality of the masculine form.

We are not discussing the issue of patrarchy or matraichy. We are discussing the orgin myths and those attributed to any general share of equality between the two equal genders.
Myths resound through anthropology, history, literature, and ethics. The link as posted by Stormeyy which contains posts from women Mormons is within the discussion of ethics.What people actually say matters to how we understand what people mean in talk of this or that, in particular in this case the myths surrounding the name Lilith.
I was particularly taken with the etymological similarities mentioned in one of Stormeyy's links between Eve but more particularly Eva, the Islamic Hawa, and the arabic name which now i forget. But remember that Arabic pronunciation has the 'ch' sound like the ch in the Scottish 'loch', which can be elided as in Eva or almost elided as in Hawa.V and W are also interchangeable. So you see my interest in connecting the provenance of myths with the names of mythic persons is linguistic. I still love the owls though, as owls with all their inherent creepiness.
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Marabod
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Post by Marabod » April 1st, 2010, 4:56 pm

I believe, Belinda, that the sub-classes also can be understood, as soon as their main features of mentality are discovered, as well as the origins of these features. Cosa Nostra is not an exception. As an organisation it was initially a revolutionary resistance conspiracy of the followers of Garibaldi. The cells of a wide national-liberation network, mainly rural, which supported the guerrillas during the formation of Italian nation. We need to take into account that Italians are very young as a nation - as soon as the huge tribal union of Roman Empire fell apart, all the tribes remained on their own, and continued independent development up until the middle of 19th century. It was only the power of Romans, which was holding Italian colonies together, and they were lacking cultural unity.

Rural Italy, specially Sicily belongs to another culture than the main "boot", they are successors of Greeks and Phoenicians and have their stable tribal customs different from those of the rest of Italians. The culture is rather primitive and the structure of the society is very archaic. They have extended families, forming clans, and these clans have their leaders, the richest or the strongest or the wisest, to whom the other members appeal for an advice or call in the conflicts as a tertiary judge. They also have blood feud tradition, same as in Spain, Corsica or in Caucasis. When Italy was united and Garibaldi's movement ceased to exist, these families found themselves in control of the revolutionary conspiracy structure, left from him. So, their elderly started to use the individual cells for pursuing family interests - because they were initially quite disrespectful to the alien laws, introduced from Rome.

Thus Cosa Nostra is really a family business, in which the former clan seniors became God Fathers, as it may now embrace not only physical relatives, but also people "baptized in". The same strict medieval laws rule inside such "family" as were ruling several hundred years ago in the rural clans. One can draw a parallel with 18th century Scots or modern Chechens, the latter mostly repeat Sicilian pattern and see "family business" as the best way of extracting the income from society. I mean these people are not monsters, they are good family men - just stuck in the past with their mentality and are failing to catch up. We all were like that in some historical period of our past.

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Post by Belinda » April 2nd, 2010, 7:09 am

Thanks Marabod. I accept what you wrote about Cosa Nostra, Italian history,and what I'd describe as social control by means of vendetta. Your comparisn with Scottish clans interests me because many persons who today have Scottish clan surnames are descended not from the family but from adopted followers.
Can you recommend a book or website about vendetta, its history and sociology?
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Post by Marabod » April 2nd, 2010, 7:18 pm

Belinda wrote:Thanks Marabod. I accept what you wrote about Cosa Nostra, Italian history,and what I'd describe as social control by means of vendetta. Your comparisn with Scottish clans interests me because many persons who today have Scottish clan surnames are descended not from the family but from adopted followers.
Can you recommend a book or website about vendetta, its history and sociology?
Alas! The info I passed in a concentrated form, was assembled piece by piece over the years - I am really unaware of some source, which comprehensively explains this matter. Another my observation is that vendetta custom is spread mainly among the cultures of the highlanders, and Sicilians, Corsicans, Basques, Scots and Chechens fall into this category.Given the terrain, these people historically got used to live by the sword, as agriculture cannot really feed them, all they can have is lamb from their flocks. This makes them to be a sort of land vikings, looting at opportunity, and this requires firm leadership and stern customs. They are never numerous, as harsh conditions, dangerous lifestyle and lack of food prevents them from breeding fast. Any attack on a clan member is an act of war, as due to their low numbers each clan member is of a great value - so they claim revenge for any such attack. Hence vendetta. IMO of course.

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