Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Use this forum to have philosophical discussions about aesthetics and art. What is art? What is beauty? What makes art good? You can also use this forum to discuss philosophy in the arts, namely to discuss the philosophical points in any particular movie, TV show, book or story.
Fleetfootphil
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Right. And bullying has a for-sure un-PC rap these days. No one likes being duped- unless they have a good sense of humor. Life is pretty silly. No sense getting all twisted up when someone blows their dog whistle and we bark.
Belinda
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Belinda »

No sense getting all twisted up when someone blows their dog whistle and we bark.
I like this :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Fleetfootphil
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Fleetfootphil »

As the initial post on this tread aptly states, art has been harnassed and shackeled into service, to perform work that it was never intended to do before. Art is now supposed to solve social problems and shine lights on problems for mankind. It's supposed to be "cutting edge" and "avant garde". Is it fair to heap that kind of load on some people who just want to draw, paint and sculpt?
Belinda
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Belinda »

Fleetfootphil wrote:As the initial post on this tread aptly states, art has been harnassed and shackeled into service, to perform work that it was never intended to do before. Art is now supposed to solve social problems and shine lights on problems for mankind. It's supposed to be "cutting edge" and "avant garde". Is it fair to heap that kind of load on some people who just want to draw, paint and sculpt?

True, I have been emphasing social problems as the locus of meaning in works of art. This is only partly true. Art is also for expressing our hopes fears and passions. Art is going to take the place of religion as means of expression of our feeling, and vehicle for facing ethical problems.

I think there are always people who want to inject meaning into what they do, and others who want to do what they do because of the sensual satisfaction involved. It is true that there is sensual satisfaction in making artistic artefacts, and only the most dry old Calvinist would deny sensual satisfaction to artists or anyone else.

It is as fair to heap the responsibility to deal with avant garde and post modern upon artists as upon anyone else. Why should artists be excused this responsibiity, especially when artists are better skilled than anyone else to shoulder it?
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Fleetfootphil
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Really? Artists are better equipped to fix societal problems than others? I would need to see some kind of proof supporting that. Creativity is the standard answer but doesn't hold up. Scientists, financiers, entrepeneurs and many other skill types are at least as creative as artists.

I'm not sure we should heap anything on anyone. There is no shortage of people (say politicians) who want to take on issues. I think that, for the most part, artists just make art. What they tell themselves they are saying or doing is often not what they actually achieve in their work. The meaning that comes out of looking at their work is brought by the viewer to the work, artists just provide triggers- of which they are often unaware themselves. On the other hand, there are activists who use "artistic" means, such as painting and photography, to generate response but not really to make art.
Belinda
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Belinda »

Am I missing something? I have thought that shouldering the responsibilites of life is what defines an adult human.
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Fleetfootphil
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Why would you think that? We shoulder what we want to and shirk the rest. As far as heaping things on others, I don't like that idea at all. I will take what part I want to take in the big mess. I can make it worse and be an adult or make it better and be a child. I don't owe anything to anyone just because I am here.

Who decides what are societal problems anyway? Are they a function of natural law? If we all shoulder everything, are we all socialists? Is being a socialist a bad thing? Is there an accepted way among artists to shoulder the responsibility of raising children? Do adults share responsibility for the distribution of education? Is education supposed to be equal for all or do some adults better educate some in their care than they do others? Is it possible to know about slaughter of innocents in a foreign land by militarists who get their support from taxes I pay and still be an adult?

I think I am involved, not by choice, in many things but I have no responsibilties in any of it. I am barely responsible for what I do. I belive that, as humans, we developed the illusion that we can control ourselves and other things. But we can't. We just watch as things happen.
Belinda
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Belinda »

Fleetfootphil asks the right questions, anyway :)

And has no illusions about his own capabilities.
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Fleetfootphil
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Fleetfootphil »

I reckon I have other illusions that combine to form my personal escapism.

I think there are always people who want to inject meaning onto things that had none to begin with. There are lots of songs that became lovers' anthems, as well as others' anthems, that turn out to have been about dogs, Jesus, lesbianism, drugs. We don't know what we are talking about but we just keep on talking anyway. I read a birthday card the other day that said "a year older and one year closer to just making things up." Ain't that the truth?
Belinda
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Belinda »

"a year older and one year closer to just making things up." Ain't that the truth
:) :) Not to be discouraged though!
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Fleetfootphil
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Not to be encouraged either : )
Belinda
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Belinda »

"a year older and one year closer to just making things up." Ain't that the truth?
What I meant, Fleetfootphil, is I must try not to be discouraged even although I know that I invent narratives to suit my agendas. After all, it is good to know that one has this ordinary human fault, and can then do something about it.

It is good thinking to to be able to see from others' perspectives.
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Fleetfootphil
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Fleetfootphil »

How are we to think from others' perspectives when the only one we have is our own? All of our thoughts are us in our own illusion. I know that I invent narratives too but I call them by different names (as narrative seems a little trendy and part of the PC culture). I just say I lie to myself, ******** myself, whatever, in order to feel good about the way I fit into what is happening around me. But, thank the gods and the mindless peons who support them, I have no agendas.

I love a good human fault.
Belinda
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Belinda »

How are we to think from others' perspectives when the only one we have is our own?
Art, that is what it is for . There is also art's function as medium for expression of communal values.
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Fleetfootphil
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Re: Avant-garde, post-modernism and meaning

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Belinda: Nah, that doesn't wash. Whenever some fabulous artist shows me something fabulous to fabulously consider, I do it through my own illuson of reality. It's all just a game of chasing our own tails. We can all pat ourselves on the back for "getting it"- until we realize that there is nothing to get and that we have no backs to pat anyway. Artists just make art. The rest is not real.

Why do people think that that other discussion about fat and skinny women is okay here? Is it because the guy who uses a baby picture to identify himself dreamed it up and asked it? What illusions of reality are at play there? Illusions are not reality but living inside them is. The dang paradoxes are all over the place. , Are there separations between lines of inquiry in life? Who has a valid answer to any question?

Belinda: I appreciate knowing that you think about things. That is so much more satisfactory than reading "thoughts" of those who couldn't think themselves out of a copy/paste bag if their butts were ideas and they lit themslelves on fire. I reckon to be kicked out of here before long, but, in the meantime, I enjoy thinking about things with you and anyone else willing.
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