Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

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Stanley Huang
Posts: 525
Joined: April 7th, 2011, 9:52 am

Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by Stanley Huang »

I have been asking the question: Can words express much more than sound?

Because, poets express through words; painters express through drawing; musicians express through sound, now, which one of the above can express more?

Sound, words or drawings, which one can express more? Can drawings express more than words?

Because I used to ask my mother: “What about painters and poets? Do you think this poet expresses more than the other painter?”

My mother said: “You can only compare painters with painters. You cannot compare painters with poets.”

I said: “Sometimes, a poet uses words to paint an image. If so, you can use the image that the poet paints through words to ask yourself whether or not a poet can express much more than a painter.”

And to me, an image does not need to express an image. Sometimes, sound may also express an image. If you hear music, then, sometimes, the music that floats to your ears may not just express sound, because sound can also express images, where how fast is the music, or how high is the music, maybe even rhythm can all paint different images from different sounds.

So to me, an artist does not need to draw according to what he sees. And to me, an image does not need to express an image. To me, you can use sound to express music, or you can use music to express sound.

But I ask: “How limited is an expression of an artist? And can sound express much more than painting?”

Now, maybe artist does experiments. Like maybe sometimes, a poet will experiment by using different words to see what kinds of visual effects through the play of words.


Maybe a painter does experiment, where he uses different colours or different brush to see what kind of feeling can be communicated.

So when a poet is experimenting with words, to see what kinds of effects through the different use of words, so to me, maybe artists do experiments sometimes.

Where if I use this brush, I may communicate an excited feeling, while if I use a different colour, then, maybe the reverse will happen.

So artist through experimentation, he wants to see how different colours or different lines may be able to change the feelings to a reader.

And sometimes, to me, a painting may be more accurate description than words, because if a poet writes a red flower, you are unsure how red it is.

But a painter who paints a red flower, through painting, you can see how red it is.

However, there is also a limitation to painting where words can express more than a drawing.

Because a painting cannot continue once it is painted.

But a poet, if he writes, he can keep on elaborate and elaborate. He can say that the red flower is shining, and tomorrow, he is going to see it again and again, and the flower is just like the sweetness of a rainbow, so and so on.

But a painting cannot elaborate, because once it is painted, then, it is painted. But a poet can keep on elaborate where he keeps on writing and writing.

So, the limitation of painting is that it is fixed. Painting cannot elaborate while a poet can keep on elaborate as he keeps on writing.

What about sound?

Words or paintings may be able to express a sound. So a poet can say how soft is the wind breeze, floating to a leaf, or how the wave hisses, on your shoulder.

So words can express a sound, however, to me, the musician will communicate the sound more accurate than the expression of words.

Because when you say how a wave trembles, I am unsure how strong the sound is or how fast the music flows. But you hear a music from a musician, then, the music places in front of you, expressing how strong and how fast the music is directly through music.

So when poets express sound through words, I feel words cannot express accurately of how high is the music or how fast it is, but music itself can express how fast or how high the sound is, directly, and perhaps, paintings cannot express how fast or how high the music accurately.

But the limitation with sound may be that you cannot mix sound with images. A musician can only express sound if he uses sound, he cannot mix sound with images. A poet can express music and images together through words, where he can say that the music of the wave floated above you legs, and when a poet expresses, he can paint a picture where there are sounds and images through words. But a musician can only express sound, but he cannot express image directly through sound.

But he can express images indirectly through sound, but that is an indirect expression, where you use music to express sound, which will be less accurate than words.

But it is true that poets in the last century were not as creative as painters. Maybe in the past, long time ago, poets were very creative. But when more painters move to Paris during the time of Monet, painters are becoming more creative than poets, because they are starting to paint not according to what they see. Monet is a person who does not paint what he sees, but that is only a slight. When it reaches Picasso, oh, it is totally a joke.

The legs of a woman can grow on your shoulder or the sexual organ of a pig can grow on your nose. Now, Picasso just really hammered Monet, by asking: “Why do we need to paint what we see? Can’t we express what is not there?”

While poets in the last century, they did not fully hammer the observation or the senses, so this is why I feel after Monet, poets became less creative than painters, and the increase of galleries in Paris attracted more painters to France, while poets did not have a centre or a gathering place.

But even so, I still feel that there is always a new way of expression through the play of words. Like before, I wrote a short poem, where I say that a woman have sex with time.

Now, I feel I am betraying what I see, because normally, you do not say that a person can have sex with time. You can say that a person have sex with another person, but you do not say that a person have sex with time.

But I did write or say that a person having sex with time, and when my mother read my writings, she laughed.

And to me, when I write this, I am not only painting what I cannot see; I am also painting a picture where what can be seen can communicate with what cannot be seen.

And this is interesting, because normally, you will think that what can be seen can only communicate with what can be seen.

But to me, what cannot be seen may communicate with what can be seen.

If so, why can’t time have sex with the sky?

And in the past, no poets write like that.

So I feel after Monet, poets are becoming less creative than painters.

So I was not satisfied with poets.

I love literature but I was not satisfied with modern poets because I feel modern poets are not creative enough.

Maybe before Monet, there were poets who were creative, but after Monet, I feel poets were less creative than painters.

But that is not the fault of literature.

And I hope more poets will be more creative.

But the question: How much can words express?

Can words express much more than a music or a painting?

Can words express a bit more by changing the way we express?

This is a question that I ask.

Can words express a bit more and how much can words express?
Philo_ben
Posts: 101
Joined: March 15th, 2013, 11:21 am

Re: Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by Philo_ben »

Stanley Huang wrote:I have been asking the question: Can words express much more than sound?

Because, poets express through words; painters express through drawing; musicians express through sound, now, which one of the above can express more?

Sound, words or drawings, which one can express more? Can drawings express more than words?
I feel that words are most expressive while drawings (and visual art) are least expressive. 8)

-- Updated March 19th, 2013, 4:51 pm to add the following --
Stanley Huang wrote:And sometimes, to me, a painting may be more accurate description than words, because if a poet writes a red flower, you are unsure how red it is.

But a painter who paints a red flower, through painting, you can see how red it is.
What is the painting accurately describing, in your opinion? - a red flower, perhaps? ... Interesting thoughts.

-- Updated March 19th, 2013, 4:53 pm to add the following --
Stanley Huang wrote:why can’t time have sex with the sky?
Well, I think that time is just a concept and that it does not exist beyond the form of thought. Even a concept explained with words fails to continue on as a concept; an image is just an image and not a depiction of a concept. So, I think that it would be illogical for time to have sex with the sky or for the sky to be attracted to time, so to speak. What do you think, Stanley?

-- Updated March 19th, 2013, 4:55 pm to add the following --
Stanley Huang wrote:I love literature but I was not satisfied with modern poets because I feel modern poets are not creative enough.
I feel that one ought to abandon literature for a time, if one has not done so already, to see how one feels about it. Most infants do not rely on literature for delight; many human endeavors that are delightful are not related to literature. I believe that literature is overrated by humanity, which is a form of... well, classification, perhaps?

-- Updated March 19th, 2013, 4:56 pm to add the following --
Stanley Huang wrote:But the question: How much can words express?
I don't know. What do you think is a good answer? - I'm curious to know, Stanley. :D
Seven devils all around me.
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Diogenes
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Re: Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by Diogenes »

It appears that Stanley has been banned, so we are unlikely to hear from him regarding this topic. Still, I would like to weigh in here and say that meaning is qualitative, not quantitative, and so it seems to me that no medium can express "more" than any other. Comparing painting to music strikes me as comparing apples to oranges. Both have the potential to evoke feeling, and perhaps one prefers music to painting, but there is nothing inherent to either medium that makes it better at conveying meaning.

Meaning is also context-dependent, and so the given meaning of any work of art depends upon the audience being immersed in that context (or at least understanding it). For example, a ritual 4th century object from India would contain a different "meaning" to a 4th century Indian who participated in its rituals than it will to a 21st century Canadian with no knowledge of its history. To relate this to the OP, I would say that the meaning one finds in a painting or a piece of music depends on the context, which includes one's own knowledge, experience, and predispositions.
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The Quirkster
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Re: Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by The Quirkster »

Words, both verbal, and written, body movements, and actions are the means by which humans communicate. Our innate intelligence wasn't enough for us to dominate the world, nor is it enough, depending on your opinions of Kant, for us to construct all the social and cultural bodies that exist today, or the technology that sees us journeying into the cosmos. The need to communicate is a universal animal imperative, but with humans, our intellect allowed us to articulate and create extremely complex forums through which we could learn from each other, and then build upon this shared knowledge. As such, humans have this ability to communicate the most simple, and also the most complex ideas that they have experienced. c, Of course, animals don't need this intricate ability to understand, much better than humans do, the dangers that life holds. Humans, though, having conquered the globe, and with no foe left to master, have found that with only ourselves to worry about, there doesn't seem to be an evolutionary imperative any more to which we need apply our complex ideas (apart from telling each other not to blow ourselves up, it seems). So, what to do with this unparalleled intellect, now that we rule supreme?

Some may feel that art, or the communication of an idea, an experience, through any form of expression, is merely an indulgent, unrepressed outburst which is only caused by the now vestigial evolutionary characteristic of our particular ability to communicate. The beginning of this post certainly reflects the ideas of some people I know. Artistic expression as like a kidney stone - something that must pass, but which holds no inherent value in its passing.

Personally, as one who likes to write poetry, I understand the idea that we all transmit ideas in our own ways, so painting and music, all forms of artistry, simply highlight our individual natures, whilst also informing us that however we communicate the idea, it is a universal human endeavour, that we all find something about our own life experiences that we need to express. Depending on the artist, their reasons for their art may be only to sate some individual purpose, and not to communicate anything special to others. Expression of art is seen by others as a means of trying to communicate, to tell a story, to convey some wisdom, to capture an epiphany.

In my opinion, the only gauge by which an artist can argue the relative merits of their expression is to try to use some form of popularity stance, as in number of books published, albums sold, et cetera. In the end, the expression itself, and the process involved, is the most rewarding aspect, in my humble opinion.

Personally, I believe that the closest to the perfection of art came from The Bard himself, William Shakespeare. No-one, in my experience has ever conveyed the entirety of the human experience, no-one has fully expressed such a complete understanding of all that humans are capable of, are motivated by, the inner-most workings of the human being, and all that comes with it. This is a personal opinion, so value it as you see fit.

However, I will, begrudgingly, leave on this quote from Pharrell Williams, which I saw on a TV commercial (The man is quite intelligent, as I'm led to believe, even though his taste in music lacks a certain Death Metal touch that I think it would benefit from), which I feel conveys the importance of self-expression:

"The most exciting thing for me is the purity of the blank canvas" -- Pharrell Williams

Dan
Philo_ben
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Re: Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by Philo_ben »

The Quirkster wrote:Personally, as one who likes to write poetry, I understand the idea that we all transmit ideas in our own ways, so painting and music, all forms of artistry, simply highlight our individual natures
Nicely said, Dan. :)
Seven devils all around me.
XavierAlex
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Re: Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by XavierAlex »

"Can Words Express More Than a Sound?"

Interesting question. There is much to explore, but if I read the other posters right, the key word is: expression. And to me, any expression usually is human. So if someone coughs or sneezes, it may be a sound, but it doesn't express as much as Hamlet or War and Peace.

Now if we were to say sounds and music, perhaps I would say that music may express more than words--but usually I listen to music with words--I gravitate to that. But the sounds conveyed can be refreshing, and on my listening end, I will interpret a myriad of meanings from music and sound. Like rereading a book and getting new meanings, something will hit me over the head as "new". It could be a simple song too. And with poetry, sometimes the point--as I'm sure you know--isn't the actual meaning, but the sounds, such as alliteration and rhyme.

That's where there can be a convergence so that it's not a comparison or either/or. The music of birds and animals, the urban sounds, as well as visual stimuli, and words as sounds can all be virtually meaningless, yet convey sensations that are the ineffable.

Most readers and listeners want meaning to be in a work of art. Like there must be some equation that answers what the meaning of some art object. However, for the artist or the audience, just Experiencing the art with the senses can be satisfying enough. And if it is a good work of art, whether painting, music, or poetry, that's when the scholars jump out and try to name it something, give it meaning. That's when it's artifact. Lacanian theories on Van Gogh. Freudian theories on Dali. Hindi interpretations on the Beatles.

At the end of the day, it does take context to create a meaning. But to appreciate the art, you needn't find a context, I feel. Although, it certainly can enrich at times historical artifact. I feel however that simply allowing the work to be an experience is enough. By the same token, I'm not saying don't learn any more about the work. The more learning the better. But it all comes down to the ineffable that is expressed through the work.

Last thing, I do think that sound has immediacy that other works don't. Like cinema, music or simply a natural sound such as waves of the ocean have immediacy in their appreciation; while poetry, prose, novels, etc. take a more active approach. So depending on the level of passivity to activity with a work, you will gain more or less, depending. Anyway, I'm rambling.
Simply Wee
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Re: Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by Simply Wee »

Words can deliver a blow halfway round the world today, quicker than one can draw their sword.
"Men are not disturbed by things, but the view they take of things".
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EMTe
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Re: Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by EMTe »

Words can express what words can express.

Sound can express what sound can express.

Some people suffer from horrible synaesthesia, having the inner gut feeling that they dig for fire and they end up heavily depressed that they can't transfer pictures of their minds to other people, showing them what they feel, see, hear. Also, they are unable to "stop time" or "stop causality" or how do they call it, so they get even more depressed, because they are unable to grasp these tiny short moments when they feel good and they are unable to keep them even for themselves.

This is the definition of internet for the time being.
The penultimate goal of the human is to howl like the wolf.
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Theophane
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Re: Can Words Express More Than a Sound?

Post by Theophane »

Words can evoke sounds but they can't provide the actual sensory input. A writer could describe someone sitting down at the piano to flawlessly play Fur Elise, but if you the reader had never heard that song being performed it would convey very little. If you had never seen a piano, if you had no idea what a piano was, the writer's words would be unintelligible.
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