Not Art

Use this forum to have philosophical discussions about aesthetics and art. What is art? What is beauty? What makes art good? You can also use this forum to discuss philosophy in the arts, namely to discuss the philosophical points in any particular movie, TV show, book or story.
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XavierAlex
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Joined: June 4th, 2012, 10:56 am

Re: Not Art

Post by XavierAlex »

Fleetfootphil wrote:Yeah, I get that about Jim Morrison and the movie. There is a cliche that, paraphrased, says when confronted with a truth or a fiction about a topic, believe the one that makes the better story. I suspect that is how we get folklore and the like, even Biblical stories. Probably, way back, someone or something unusual occurred and in the retelling it became embellished to the point that it became almost axiomatic. The better story lasts longer and presumably contains more lessons.

Journalism is different from art, as are medical healing and a few other personal-career categories, like militarism. Sadly, in our present state of affairs, journalism has slipped in its ability to remain neutral and simply present information for consideration. The delivery apparatus of current journalism has coupled it with amusement and entertainment, but we all know that. I expect it will clean itself up before long.
Very true. Life of Pi--which I just saw recently--used the rhetoric of the better story being the truthful one. When I brought up Jim Morrison and The Doors, I don't feel that the iconic legend of Jim Morrison portrayed by Oliver Stone's film is more truth about Jim Morrison or the Doors. I see it as portraying something altogether different. The documentary on the Doors narrated by Johnny Depp showed a more tragic and less Romantic notion of Jim Morrison and The Doors. It was a real downer in comparison.

I hope journalism will clean itself up.
Fleetfootphil
Posts: 277
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Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

I inadvertently stumbled on this story, which demonstrates the treatment of news and journalism now. There just ain't nothin' sacred no more- not that there should be.

http://www.fastcodesign.com/1671738/an- ... news-crawl
Belinda
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Re: Not Art

Post by Belinda »

Apeman wrote:Well this is easy. Almost EVERYTHING is not art and only a few rare, barely fathomable things ARE art. But dont trust anyone EVER who claims to know what art is. The burden is upon you. But you are wise to consult other thinker on the matter because there is nothing more potentially nourishing to one's self-motivation than the originality displayed in the insistence of some other individuals authority on a subject (whether you agree or not). But the matter resides in your territory. Art is for you to make and for you to identify - against a world of contrarians and morons. But ask, yes. If you ever show me something and ask me why it is or is not art...believe me, you will get the best I've got to offer.

While there are no truths, and there is no beauty, we ARE all irreparable 'beholders'.

Fleetfootphil then asked if art is some kind of dogma.

Some people are dogmatic about what constitutes art. I think that art is the name we give to one of the enduring and regular constituents of human behaviour. It seems to be a useful behaviour for moderns like us to name certain behaviours as art. But in the ancient prehistoric times of our species there would be no conversations about art. What people would be doing is just that--------doing What we see as ancient representations of animals was not a self conscious attempt at arty behaviour but was very likely to be a necessary part of the hunt. I daresay that the priest sort of person who was in charge of psyching up the others was the actual 'artist'.

Similarly dancing is so very much a doing activity that its ancient roots must surely be the expression of feelings. I am sure that modern dancing, if it succeeds at all, is also basically, and despite intellectualising of dancing, expressive at a very instinctive level of understanding.
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Hughsmith23
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Re: Not Art

Post by Hughsmith23 »

Fleetfootphil then asked if art is some kind of dogma.

Some people are dogmatic about what constitutes art. I think that art is the name we give to one of the enduring and regular constituents of human behaviour. It seems to be a useful behaviour for moderns like us to name certain behaviours as art. But in the ancient prehistoric times of our species there would be no conversations about art. What people would be doing is just that--------doing What we see as ancient representations of animals was not a self conscious attempt at arty behaviour but was very likely to be a necessary part of the hunt. I daresay that the priest sort of person who was in charge of psyching up the others was the actual 'artist'.

Similarly dancing is so very much a doing activity that its ancient roots must surely be the expression of feelings. I am sure that modern dancing, if it succeeds at all, is also basically, and despite intellectualising of dancing, expressive at a very instinctive level of understanding.[/quote]

Can you give some evidence to support the statement - 'in the ancient prehistoric times of our species there would be no conversations about art'?

How do you know they didn't talk about art 40,000 years ago? What reason have you to believe that? Why do you think it was a necessary part of the hunt?
Belinda
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Re: Not Art

Post by Belinda »

Of course I cannot do so! 'prehistory' implies no primary sources apart from more or less mysterious artefacts. As far as i know the artefacts we have don't constitute eviddence of philosophising, abstract interests. It's not about evidence it's about an overview of history such that survival is the motivator of behaviours. The artefacts we have from prehistoric times seem to show that shelter, sustenance and social cohesiveness were main motivations. Even the huge temples to the movements of heavenly bodies and the ancestors were probably for predicting and controlling weather and climate, and gaining the help of the tribal mores to help the living. :arrow: Art was not for educated toffs this is a recent development.
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Hughsmith23
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Re: Not Art

Post by Hughsmith23 »

Belinda wrote:Of course I cannot do so! 'prehistory' implies no primary sources apart from more or less mysterious artefacts. As far as i know the artefacts we have don't constitute eviddence of philosophising, abstract interests. It's not about evidence it's about an overview of history such that survival is the motivator of behaviours. The artefacts we have from prehistoric times seem to show that shelter, sustenance and social cohesiveness were main motivations. Even the huge temples to the movements of heavenly bodies and the ancestors were probably for predicting and controlling weather and climate, and gaining the help of the tribal mores to help the living. :arrow: Art was not for educated toffs this is a recent development.
I agree art was not for very educated toffs! Its possible, however, that in non-egalitarian pre-historical societies the people with the most power did the least work, and a lack of work usually leads people to abstract inquiry. There are many people, say in the 1950s, who were interested in abstract things, and talked about them, but they didnt write anything down - they only talked. We wouldn't expect to find artefacts of their philosophy. Philosophy, however, is very much a part of conversation itself - for Plato's Socrates, conversation was the medium of philosophy. It is likely that language and conversation evolved around the same time, and in a period of leisure (again; for some societies, especially in colder places, they were very sedantry in winter months, and worked through the resources collected in summer - they would have a lot of time on their hands) they might turn to abstract things. My basic equation is human beings + free time = something like philosophy. Especially if you are stuck with your nuclear family for the winter; you can't have sex. If god is an abstract concept, it is fairly easy to imagine prehistorical people saying something like 'what do you think god is?', and even 'what do you think art is?' It is likely they came up with words for things like god / art given the significance of religion/art in almost all known societies. I suppose it depends what you define as an abstract concept. And yes, I suppose its true, there is not evidence what so ever, so we are kind of working backwards.
Belinda
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Re: Not Art

Post by Belinda »

Hughsmith23, I doubt it, and I think we will have to agree to differ.
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Fleetfootphil
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Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

I too am unconvinced. How would I begin to guess what someone in prehistory thought about during idle times.I'm an arrogant ass but not that arrogant.

-- Updated February 5th, 2013, 9:03 pm to add the following --

Also, I have no information on familial relationships in the cold times with nothing to do.
XavierAlex
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Joined: June 4th, 2012, 10:56 am

Re: Not Art

Post by XavierAlex »

Well, I personally think that early humanoids were telepathic and didn't need to talk about abstract concepts. Its only the advancement of techne or art that atrophied most of our original powers. But that's just a pet theory I keep and know its pure speculation.
Fleetfootphil
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Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

I often think we peaked out at the beginning and hve been declining ever since.
Belinda
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Re: Not Art

Post by Belinda »

Fleetfootphil wrote:I too am unconvinced. How would I begin to guess what someone in prehistory thought about during idle times.I'm an arrogant ass but not that arrogant.

-- Updated February 5th, 2013, 9:03 pm to add the following --

Also, I have no information on familial relationships in the cold times with nothing to do.

Fleetfootphil starts from the correct premiss.Objectivity. However I think that Fleetfootphil would benefit from the anthropological approach, if he not already done so.

"Idle times" is meaningful. The climate of the ice age was so severe that probably people spent most of their time in shelters only venturing out to drive bison over the cliff.
I often think we peaked out at the beginning and hve been declining ever since.
The Old Stone Age for me. Plenty space and freedom and meat on the hoof and dogs to help.
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Hughsmith23
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Joined: February 3rd, 2013, 5:57 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Hughsmith23 »

I know I was being very speculative but only to show that the speculation of prehistorical 'spontaneous expression' is as speculative as any of my claims.

-- Updated February 6th, 2013, 3:09 pm to add the following --

Also, Belinda are you from MT?
Fleetfootphil
Posts: 277
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Can we look back through this for clues to what we consider not art- maybe a summary of sorts. I think there was talk of pain not being art because it can't be shared, only described. What about the internal dialogue that I am told runs through each of our heads all the time? That can't be shared either, at least not in its initial state. It has to be reproduced to be availble to others and then it's not itself any more.
Hughsmith23
Posts: 167
Joined: February 3rd, 2013, 5:57 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Hughsmith23 »

Fleetfootphil wrote:Can we look back through this for clues to what we consider not art- maybe a summary of sorts. I think there was talk of pain not being art because it can't be shared, only described. What about the internal dialogue that I am told runs through each of our heads all the time? That can't be shared either, at least not in its initial state. It has to be reproduced to be availble to others and then it's not itself any more.
Isn't the definition of empathy shared pain?

And doesn't fiction (or more specifically, the novel) qualify as art through the quality of its description?

..more constructively:

How to theorize shared? Do you mean that something is shared if it is experienced as the same thing by more than one person?

It seems like the idea of art as shared (following the above definitions) needs a kind of objectivism; if we all see a piece of art, e.g. a painting, in the same way, then we could be said to be sharing the experience of the painting. If we all see it differently, what is being shared?

Or do you mean more like, I have painted this, now I will share it with you; so sharing here means letting it be available to someone else?

Hegel's definition of art is fairly powerful; the sensuous representation of the absolute; it is good because it reconciles both what the art contains as idea (e.g. conceptual art, the moral of a narrative), and the means by which we see that idea (hearing, seeing, etc).
Fleetfootphil
Posts: 277
Joined: May 25th, 2012, 9:33 pm

Re: Not Art

Post by Fleetfootphil »

Speaking of art in cold and idle times, here's a quick read about an exhibit- worth a few minutes I think. I particularly noticed the minimization of our celebrated artists, like Matisse. http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/ ... than-jones

-- Updated February 7th, 2013, 1:30 pm to add the following --

Art is shared by allowing others access. It's not like a pie, consumed into non-existence. But, anyway, I tire of picayune quibbling over minutia at the expense of the idea.
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