Wilson vs. Dawkins - Selfish Gene vs. Group Selection

Discuss the February 2015 philosophy book of the month, The Meaning of Human Existence by Edward O. Wilson.
Post Reply
User avatar
Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
The admin formerly known as Scott
Posts: 5748
Joined: January 20th, 2007, 6:24 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
Contact:

Wilson vs. Dawkins - Selfish Gene vs. Group Selection

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

[This topic is about the February 2015 philosophy book of the month, "The Meaning of Human Existence" by Edward O. Wilson. Please refrain from participating until you have read the book.]

To me, the most interesting arguments in the book were about the unit of selection.

I really enjoyed the examples Wilson gave from his work with ant colonies. What do you think of that?

It seems like a highly technical difference in evolutionary theory, but it has significant implications for the meaning of human existence (using meaning in the second, scientific usage as described by Wilson at the beginning of the book). This is because it is so crucial to understanding the development of so-called altruism in the individual, especially in the complex way that well-observed trait relates conflictingly with other observed traits such as self-preservation, personal reproduction and selfishness in the individual.

Many people are familiar with the idea epitomized by Dawkins' famous work, The Selfish Gene. However, I think Wilson provides a more accurate description. The concept of the selfish gene really helps explain in a basic way how the basic cutthroat formula of competitive natural selection in evolution leads to altruistic-like behavior. However, it's overly basic. Wilson does not not deny that the unit of selection is the gene. The difference I think is simply a more complex understanding of the various ways that complex social interactions, societies and cultures create environments that do not make a simple formula like calculating one's genetic similarity to someone else and the reproductive benefits of saving that person work. Rather those simple formulas provide a rough estimate of what we will often see. The idea of the group also being a target of selection is a more powerful explanation, in my opinion, because it does not deny the role of the individual also being a target or of the selfish gene (and thus direct altruism to genetically similar individuals in proportion to genetic similarity weighted by likelihood to reproduce). The 'selfish gene' position held by the likes of Dawkins' in contrast denies the obvious reality of group selection, which makes it false. The explanation that cascades these differing observable factors is more complete and accurate.

What do you think?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Alias
Posts: 3119
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Wilson vs. Dawkins - Selfish Gene vs. Group Selection

Post by Alias »

This selection came up just as I was reading Erich Hoyt's The Earth Dwellers - a remarkable book about the life of ants, with an affectionate glance at entomologists, particularly Wilson. Thus, with my new understanding, I find Wilson's argument both convincing on a common-sense level and compelling philosophically.

I enjoyed the Wilson book and it did have one or two valuable insights, but I wish he had made it longer, developed the argument more fully.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
User avatar
Alan Jones
Posts: 72
Joined: May 7th, 2013, 2:33 pm
Favorite Philosopher: J. Dewey W.T. Rockwell
Location: Emyn Mar, the Otter Lake Moraine, Michigan

Re: Wilson vs. Dawkins - Selfish Gene vs. Group Selection

Post by Alan Jones »

I'm disappointed that Richard Dawkins would appeal to authority, and that E.O. Wilson would react with an inappropriate characterization of Dawkins.

According to David Sloan Wilson, the understandings of both Richard Dawkins and E.O. Wilson are flawed: "I also have claimed that there is a zone of consensus of the many and that both Dawkins and Wilson are outliers who fail to recognize that the days of pitting kin selection against group selection are over." Read his review of their dispute: https://evolution-institute.org/article ... -the-many/
"Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them." - Peter Ustinov "Every great advance in natural knowledge has involved the absolute rejection of authority." - Thomas Huxley
Post Reply

Return to “"The Meaning of Human Existence" by Edward O. Wilson”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021