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What happens to us when we die?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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LuckyR
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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by LuckyR » February 8th, 2018, 11:55 am

Barry Sears wrote:
February 8th, 2018, 5:59 am
If you stumbled across a tree, never seen before. A new discovery. Lets call this Greta after the discoverer. The tree grows and grows for a thousand years and was able to produce seeds that were carried by the wind. Unseen for hundreds of years the seeds spread and flourished around the entire globe, springing to life many Greta trees. One day a mighty storm uplifted the first found Greta and it lay over the soil, with time returned to the Earth and organically transformed through other life forms.

Now Greta's live scattered around the globe each exposed to different conditions and each altering and adapting slightly differently, hotter conditions, colder conditions and cross pollination wow.

At this point of time for a tree would it be considered that death has occurred? Within a forest in New Zealand a Greta has produced an almost unrecognizable tree, a new discovery lets call it Scott after it's discoverer.

From a slightly alternative perspective, when considering time on a different scale, from when Earth was naked of life, when just the blue print existed, awaiting the moment when conditions allowed the surface to flourish. Organics, elements warmed up and were allowed to dance and sing and express life. At this point of time you could say life began on Earth but also it was a transition between the awaiting blueprint and the appropriate conditions allowing and resulting in a point of expression of life. Growing spreading developing and changing to the conditions.

The Earth became too wet for the continued survival of the original Greta but the new Scott flourished and spread. Although no Greta's exist anymore Scott is everywhere. Did Greta die or has she altered her state of expression.

The planet reached a point in it's life where all was as big and strong as possible and then the reverse process began where water shifted as the planets position changed with time. Life on the surface was still plentiful, just once again altered and changed to the changing conditions. Smaller versions, warmer conditions, faster. Until after millions more relative years the planet dries and is cremated as part of the planetary life cycle.

Did all of life on this planet "die" or did the planet itself pass through a phase of expression. Through this phase "life" (surface forms) began, altered and changed and then faded through time. You could say individually they lived and died, you could say collectively over time all live on the surface lived and died but more sensibly it is all an expression, allowed to flourish because of it's condition and position in time.

Exists there does a magical zone, a Goldilocks zone. A spherical band where water is present in a liquid form. To close to the sun and evaporation occurs, too far away and it is frozen. This magical zone is where the phase of expression occurs on the planet, due to the state of water. The organic planetary evolutionary process defined by the "New Perspective" explains how planets pass through this zone in their life-cycle. This micro expression of life occurs within this zone and has and will do so again as other planets pass through this phase. Within this zone is a growing collectiveness of life experiences like a soup or record of life that has been, all combining to produce a growing personality of it's own.

A planet itself moves through this zone, surface life begins millions of years pass and the planet dries and life on the surface too. This memory is not lost though as the energy, the collective history remains within the magical zone. This memory or collective energy awaits the next planet to absorb it's history of life. The planet returns to dust and stone but life continues.

I suggest this collectiveness is much older than just the life on Earth. Any microscopic moment is never lost. I do feel that our life experiences occur on our level of terrestrial life. Combined with all life experiences from all forms of life, they merge and grow as a collective energy that produces an overall characteristic of the next level of life or size step, the planetary life.

http://thenewperspective21.wix.com/anewworld
You are, of course correct. Though to be fair, you are describing Life, most are more interested in life.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » February 8th, 2018, 6:11 pm

Barry Sears wrote:
February 8th, 2018, 5:59 am
If you stumbled across a tree, never seen before. A new discovery. Lets call this Greta after the discoverer. The tree grows and grows for a thousand years and was able to produce seeds that were carried by the wind. Unseen for hundreds of years the seeds spread and flourished around the entire globe, springing to life many Greta trees. One day a mighty storm uplifted the first found Greta and it lay over the soil, with time returned to the Earth and organically transformed through other life forms.

Now Greta's live scattered around the globe each exposed to different conditions and each altering and adapting slightly differently, hotter conditions, colder conditions and cross pollination wow.

At this point of time for a tree would it be considered that death has occurred? Within a forest in New Zealand a Greta has produced an almost unrecognizable tree, a new discovery lets call it Scott after it's discoverer.

From a slightly alternative perspective, when considering time on a different scale, from when Earth was naked of life, when just the blue print existed, awaiting the moment when conditions allowed the surface to flourish. Organics, elements warmed up and were allowed to dance and sing and express life. At this point of time you could say life began on Earth but also it was a transition between the awaiting blueprint and the appropriate conditions allowing and resulting in a point of expression of life. Growing spreading developing and changing to the conditions.

The Earth became too wet for the continued survival of the original Greta but the new Scott flourished and spread. Although no Greta's exist anymore Scott is everywhere. Did Greta die or has she altered her state of expression.

The planet reached a point in it's life where all was as big and strong as possible and then the reverse process began where water shifted as the planets position changed with time. Life on the surface was still plentiful, just once again altered and changed to the changing conditions. Smaller versions, warmer conditions, faster. Until after millions more relative years the planet dries and is cremated as part of the planetary life cycle.

Did all of life on this planet "die" or did the planet itself pass through a phase of expression. Through this phase "life" (surface forms) began, altered and changed and then faded through time. You could say individually they lived and died, you could say collectively over time all live on the surface lived and died but more sensibly it is all an expression, allowed to flourish because of it's condition and position in time.

Exists there does a magical zone, a Goldilocks zone. A spherical band where water is present in a liquid form. To close to the sun and evaporation occurs, too far away and it is frozen. This magical zone is where the phase of expression occurs on the planet, due to the state of water. The organic planetary evolutionary process defined by the "New Perspective" explains how planets pass through this zone in their life-cycle. This micro expression of life occurs within this zone and has and will do so again as other planets pass through this phase. Within this zone is a growing collectiveness of life experiences like a soup or record of life that has been, all combining to produce a growing personality of it's own.

A planet itself moves through this zone, surface life begins millions of years pass and the planet dries and life on the surface too. This memory is not lost though as the energy, the collective history remains within the magical zone. This memory or collective energy awaits the next planet to absorb it's history of life. The planet returns to dust and stone but life continues.

I suggest this collectiveness is much older than just the life on Earth. Any microscopic moment is never lost. I do feel that our life experiences occur on our level of terrestrial life. Combined with all life experiences from all forms of life, they merge and grow as a collective energy that produces an overall characteristic of the next level of life or size step, the planetary life.

http://thenewperspective21.wix.com/anewworld
Barry, I must say that most of this accords with my intuition, but it's speculative as to what is lost or not. Maybe everything is stored at the Planck scale, as bits (and bytes) of reality? Maybe. Only a revolutionary advance on colliders will provide measurable evidence.

I am fascinated by the moments directly around death, especially since in many cases the brain will have enough oxygen to allow the person to be aware that they are dead.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » February 9th, 2018, 1:01 am

When my son died in 1996 in the hospital after spending almost his whole life as a quadriplegic on a breathing machine after he was hit by an idiotic driver at the age of three when he was trying to reach the sidewalk. The rest of the family sat quietly for a few moments to absorb the absolute of his no longer existence after a ferocious and desperate struggle to preserve his wondrous intelligence trapped in a body unresponsive below his neck. What his death might mean to himself was beyond knowing but it no doubt removed him completely from the rest of us except from our dreams and immense sense of loss which remains as an integral part of our lives until we too disappear into dreams and remorse. For life, whatever may be said of energies and eternities, is a matter for us still alive as an island of awareness alone in a universe of submicroscopic particles and galaxies crashing into each other with no sense of either creation or destruction whatever may be the result. There is a uniqueness of just being alive, an odd gift that most people simply do not appreciate as they strive in directions I have never been able to appreciate nor understand. I am now quite old and still most delighted and aware as best I can manage with the jewels of each moment as it passes from then to now to when and that is quite enough.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » February 9th, 2018, 2:11 am

Jan, I'm sorry to hear about your son. Very hard. I have also wondered what might have gone through the minds of various departed family members as they faced death.

Having previously been through very negative periods, I know how it feels to not appreciate the gift of life. It's an existential error, mistaking the froth of social dynamics for actual life. Overrating the social and taking nature for granted often leads to depression, disproportionately poor self esteem, conflict and confusion.

Yes, I don't think too many are going to reach their 90s who did not greatly enjoy being alive.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Barry Sears » February 11th, 2018, 5:07 am

LuckyR Quoted
You are, of course correct. Though to be fair, you are describing Life, most are more interested in life.
I have been extremely privileged to be shown the full World formation and how the planetary life-cycle works. Allowed to comprehend this process, allows you to view terrestrial life much easier. My current work or research is accumulating the evidence which suggests planetary motion. This appears to be all of our fossil records as the process explains how life has developed to a maximum size and is now reducing in structure to smaller species. It explains how fossil records once recorded more days annually and it explains the natural process of global warming.
This becomes challenging to explain to the scientific community as I am not producing the supporting formulae and physics. It does however, make it easier to understand the smaller elements. A main purpose of this concept is to establish this basic understanding, so that the movement of life or transmigration to the next planet is introduced. The Earth is relatively just past the mid point in the water phase, with Mars entering this phase of expression. This process over hundreds of thousands of relative years establishes a direction for the continuous process of terrestrial life.
Yes I usually refer to "Life" I comprehend this as an individual process of "life" but on an alternative scale.

Hi Jan. That must be one of the most difficult experience ever in life. I am so sorry. My Bestman is tetra and has been since the age of 18, 30 years now, he survived when told he wouldn't, has married and has a son now 13. We went to primary school, close at the time, tough, but his journey is an inspiration. May yours be for others too.

Hey Greta, nice to be back. I have been brushing up on my physics and planetary motion theories, scientific discussions. Will reply soon.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » February 11th, 2018, 6:00 am

The human position currently is quite dangerous as the least competent people are in control of our planet and for purposes that are quite obviously totally without sense. It is like some primitive ferocious animals have discovered a stone statue of the most desirable prey and are killing each other in order to possess it in order to eat it. Money is a social means to an end and if used properly it can direct humanity to provide real value to humans and the rest of the life on the planet but it is like a good road that can lead to worthwhile destinations. But a road itself has no value, it is the destination that is important. All the energies of humanity is now in building roads with no sensible destinations and a planet covered with roads to nowhere becomes a dead planet.

Most peculiarly this Earth has a small companion planet, the Moon, which is most unusually large and is a natural launch point for a species with the right technologies to spread outwards to space. It has no water to speak of to accommodate life and no atmosphere to accommodate oxygen breathing creatures but it has lots of materials to build space craft and no air to prevent rail guns to launch space craft without using rockets which are a clumsy way to move craft into space. It is a natural space port for creatures living on a close-by planet that is ideal for living creatures to bridge their way into a solar civilization bright enough to use their powers correctly and not destroy themselves. The moment is right now for the imbeciles now set to destroy most life on the planet to be removed from power to permit the sensible people to move on to a civilization to live on other planets around this sun and eventually to the planets of other suns. The proper decisions must be made within the next decades whether we advance properly or destroy ourselves out of the vicious nonsense of the incredibly stupid people now in control of our planet.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by StayCurious » February 13th, 2018, 4:50 am

I personally don't think it's too scary to admit that we have absolutely not a single clue. I think there are many individuals that push forth there own theories in hopes of them being true and pushing the concept of it being bliss and so on, but I think accepting we will never know until we experience it and living life the best we can until then is the real adventure :).

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Barry Sears » February 18th, 2018, 6:48 am

Greta quoted
it's speculative as to what is lost or not. Maybe everything is stored.
I think you would agree that "every kick of a football is part of the game" or "every leaf on a tree is part of the tree and if the leaf falls is was still part of the tree". I don't think anything is lost as any experience, regardless of the scale, is accumulative. The physical referred to, perhaps creates the memory and the ability to stimulate additional energy changes. So how broken down are the energies or memories? how or where, even are they stored. I do believe I will give this, individual component, deeper thought or focus one day, but for now I believe water requires much more consideration with this idea.
The ultimate awareness is the potential ability to access this concept of a collective memory and to break this down into smaller components or experiences. Having a belief in Mother Earth, the Holy Spirit, may ground you with some spiritual experiences, but to see this World structure physically can provide you with a doorway for communication. As always the ability to communicate is as being born or learning a new language, a process that has to be learned and there is no time to start than the present. For what reason is the intention to communicate?
There are those that develop this, focus there attention on communicating with those that have passed. Each will also have their own technique and use different means of communication. My attention to this day has been identifying and communicating with the World as a full body and so this has developed into a new language and physical relationship with the Celestial form as described in other threads. Communication with Mother Earth is always a direct relationship and for what reason we individually focus on may build and bind this relationship.
I don't think anything is lost and so everything is stored. Is the attention then about how is it stored from a logical scientific explanation and can it be accessed? Absolutely, but for what reason or benefit would you knock on the door.
Greetings and welcome Stay Curious. Jan I wish to reply to your post soon.
Stay Curious. Your entry replied to itself. Some may not have a single clue, but it is those that have had experiences that may try to explain it. These explanations may only make sense to the ones who seek along a similar path.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » February 18th, 2018, 7:21 am

I am terribly sorry but all this talk about memories and mother Earth finds no meaningful response from me. People, like bats and oysters, have different relationships with whatever reality they occupy but a dead person is a piece of meat no more full of memories than the average hamburger and anyone who desires to communicate with a hamburger impresses me as rather odd.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Consul » February 18th, 2018, 4:25 pm

philoreaderguy wrote:
April 14th, 2007, 3:14 pm
What happens to us when we die? What do you think happens? What do you want to happen?
The answer depends on what we are.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » February 18th, 2018, 5:52 pm

Consul wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 4:25 pm
philoreaderguy wrote:
April 14th, 2007, 3:14 pm
What happens to us when we die? What do you think happens? What do you want to happen?
The answer depends on what we are.
If you lost your memory, what would you see as being the connective threads of your life, that connected the "you" of your childhood with the "you" today?

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Consul » February 18th, 2018, 6:36 pm

Greta wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 5:52 pm
Consul wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 4:25 pm
The answer depends on what we are.
If you lost your memory, what would you see as being the connective threads of your life, that connected the "you" of your childhood with the "you" today?
I think we are members of the animal species homo sapiens; that is, we are human animals. This view is called animalism. Being human animals (animal organisms), our (diachronic-)identity or continuity conditions are non-psychological, so that psychological continuity or connectedness, and mental states or properties such as personal memories are irrelevant: I exist as long as the human animal I am exists.

From this (the animalist) point of view, my psychological death, i.e. the irreversible loss of my (self-)consciousness and my mind, is the end of my mental existence but not the end of my existence. For to lose one's mind isn't necessarily to also lose one's life, one's vital existence: psychological death ≠ biological death. After my psychological death, I can continue to exist as a nonconscious living being.

Most animalists hold that an animal's biological death, i.e. the irreversible cessation of its vital functions, is the end of its existence; but I disagree with them, thinking that a biologically dead animal is still an existing animal. (If this weren't true, there'd be no roadkill.) It can continue to exist as a nonconscious nonliving being, as a corpse or cadaver. For to lose one's vital existence isn't necessarily to also lose one's material existence: biological death ≠ physical death. Physical death means the physical disintegration, decomposition, or destruction of an organism (through natural decay, being eaten and digested by another animal), cremation, intentional dissection, or an explosion).
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Consul » February 18th, 2018, 6:44 pm

"The good news is that most of us will survive death. Most of us will continue to exist after we die. The bad news is that though we will survive death, and will continue to exist after we die, each of us will then be dead. We will have no psychological experiences. We will just be corpses. Such survival may be of very little value."

(Feldman, Fred. Confrontations with the Reaper: A Philosophical Study of the Nature and Value of Death. New York: Oxford University Press, 1992. p. 105)

That is to say, most of us will survive their psychological or/and biological death for some time (but not their physical death).

"Corpsism is the thesis that an animal is an enduring thing that survives death as a corpse, until the corpse disintegrates."

(Forrest, Peter. "The Tree of Life: Agency and Immortality in a Metaphysics Inspired by Quantum Theory." In Persons: Human and Divine, edited by Peter van Inwagen and Dean Zimmerman, 301-318. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2007. p. 301n2)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Steve3007 » February 18th, 2018, 6:56 pm

"Corpsism is the thesis that an animal is an enduring thing that survives death as a corpse, until the corpse disintegrates."
Corpsism. I like that. I like the craziness of it. I wonder what criteria the corpsist uses to determine whether the animal has disintegrated. As with so much else in life, rotting away is not an all-or-nothing affair. It's a process without any hard dividing line between corpse and no-corpse. Unless we're cremated, of course.

Personally I don't want to be cremated. If possible I want to be buried and be gradually eaten by worms and various microbes and then have my bones dug up and studied many years later. Although, with 7 billion other skeletons to compete with I suppose my bones probably wouldn't be important enough. Perhaps before I go I should break and reset one of them in an unusual way, as a message to posterity.

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Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » February 18th, 2018, 7:07 pm

Consul wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 6:36 pm
Greta wrote:
February 18th, 2018, 5:52 pm

If you lost your memory, what would you see as being the connective threads of your life, that connected the "you" of your childhood with the "you" today?
I think we are members of the animal species homo sapiens; that is, we are human animals. This view is called animalism. Being human animals (animal organisms), our (diachronic-)identity or continuity conditions are non-psychological, so that psychological continuity or connectedness, and mental states or properties such as personal memories are irrelevant: I exist as long as the human animal I am exists.

From this (the animalist) point of view, my psychological death, i.e. the irreversible loss of my (self-)consciousness and my mind, is the end of my mental existence but not the end of my existence. For to lose one's mind isn't necessarily to also lose one's life, one's vital existence: psychological death ≠ biological death. After my psychological death, I can continue to exist as a nonconscious living being.

Most animalists hold that an animal's biological death, i.e. the irreversible cessation of its vital functions, is the end of its existence; but I disagree with them, thinking that a biologically dead animal is still an existing animal. (If this weren't true, there'd be no roadkill.) It can continue to exist as a nonconscious nonliving being, as a corpse or cadaver. For to lose one's vital existence isn't necessarily to also lose one's material existence: biological death ≠ physical death. Physical death means the physical disintegration, decomposition, or destruction of an organism (through natural decay, being eaten and digested by another animal), cremation, intentional dissection, or an explosion).
That resonates. The start is the zygote - then embryo, foetus, infant, child, adult, geriatric and corpse - until there is one final living cell at the moment of brain death. This process of eversion and inversion is abstractly akin to a 3D object moving through a flat plane - from point to maximum to point.

As far as meaningful existence goes, based on my own musings, it seems to me that the real hope of people is not so much continued existence as the kind of continued existence that allows them to see their loved ones again. The idea, I think, is that the dying brain's dream state that allows it access to the astral plane (a la astral travel and lucid dreaming) . The path there would presumably be via the "loving white light", whose physical correlates are thought to be the decline of the visual system and high dose of dopamine.

However, have believers thought it through? Imagine that you die and are led up the tunnel to meet up with deceased family, friends and pets. What then? Visit one's astral homes, eating an astral dinner made up of the carcass of an astral animal, seek an astral job and basically go on as before into eternity?

For me, perhaps the larger issue is the period of brain death. The stories of welcoming white lights and knowledge that the brain at this point floods with dopamine are encouraging. It would be nice to think that loved ones felt beautiful before they finally passed out.

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