Subjective or Objective: Which?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 789
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Pattern-chaser » June 28th, 2020, 7:18 am

gad-fly wrote:
June 27th, 2020, 11:01 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 26th, 2020, 5:58 am

And I strongly disagree, I'm afraid. 😉 Rather, I would say that "by observing it from multiple perspectives and seeing what changes and what remains the same - by doing this, we build a consensus understanding of what properties the object retains independent [of] any single 'subjective' experience of it".

Consensus ≠ objectivity
Actually, that quote is from me, as it now shows. 😉
gad-fly wrote:
June 27th, 2020, 11:01 am
Objective is about view and opinion.
This is the opposite of the conventional meaning of the word. Traditionally, objectivity is about being completely and totally independent of view and opinion. I think it's true to say that, according to conventional usage, "objective" is not about view and opinion, it has nothing at all to do with view and opinion, it is what you get when you completely remove view and opinion (if that's even possible?).
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

gad-fly
Posts: 567
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly » June 28th, 2020, 11:44 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 28th, 2020, 7:18 am
[ "objective" is not about view and opinion, it has nothing at all to do with view and opinion, it is what you get when you completely remove view and opinion (if that's even possible?).
You are correct if you take Objective as a noun, to mean purpose and intended consequence. It is in the dictionary. In this case, its antonym cannot be Subjective which is not a noun. The present thread is tilted with Objective against Subjective when it asks Which.

As to pursuing an objective with no prior opinion or comment, I cannot see why not. Go after what you want. Why take ye thought for the morrow?

User avatar
Ron Krumpos
New Trial Member
Posts: 4
Joined: June 27th, 2020, 6:24 pm

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Ron Krumpos » June 28th, 2020, 2:31 pm

Be objective, not subjective. To control sentiments of “I,” weigh reactions to your words, others’ sensitivity to your thoughts and probable consequences of your actions. To heighten thinking beyond “me,” be cognizant of the reasons for your reasoning, goals of your learning, relevance of your memories, and real possibilities in your imagining. To enhance your senses beyond “my,” look not just see, listen not only hear, feel not solely touch, identify the scent not merely smell, and savor not taste alone. Go outside “self,” beyond me. The inherent significance of what is presently here is external.

User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 789
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Pattern-chaser » June 29th, 2020, 9:23 am

gad-fly wrote:
June 28th, 2020, 11:44 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 28th, 2020, 7:18 am
[ "objective" is not about view and opinion, it has nothing at all to do with view and opinion, it is what you get when you completely remove view and opinion (if that's even possible?).
You are correct if you take Objective as a noun, to mean purpose and intended consequence.
That may be so, but that wasn't my point ... and I can't see how you could have mistaken what I said for introducing yet another meaning carried by the term "objective". No, I didn't mean it in the sense of "he pursued his objective". I meant that objective - unbiased, detached, etc - is generally understood to carry a meaning that is distanced from view and opinion to the extent that it is wholly independent of them.

Is the purpose of this topic to introduce even more confusion into the use of the words "objective" and "subjective", and thereby encourage their non-use? I can see only an appeal for consensus over individual opinions. How am I getting this all so wrong? 🤔🤔🤔
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

gad-fly
Posts: 567
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly » June 29th, 2020, 10:15 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 9:23 am
I can see only an appeal for consensus over individual opinions. How am I getting this all so wrong?
I can understand your concern. Go ahead with your appeal for consensus. It may be a valuable experience.

User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 789
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Pattern-chaser » June 29th, 2020, 10:29 am

gad-fly wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 10:15 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 9:23 am
I can see only an appeal for consensus over individual opinions. How am I getting this all so wrong?
I can understand your concern. Go ahead with your appeal for consensus. It may be a valuable experience.
Oo, what? I am not appealing to or for consensus. I do oppose the view that objectivity can be derived from consensus, but I have no special interest in it apart from that. I just cannot see the purpose of this topic, and I want to. I'm not trying to derail your topic, but I am trying to understand it. And I'm not doing well at all. Perhaps it's just me. That's not an uncommon experience. 😉
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

gad-fly
Posts: 567
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly » June 29th, 2020, 11:28 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 29th, 2020, 10:29 am
I just cannot see the purpose of this topic, and I want to. I'm not trying to derail your topic, but I am trying to understand it. And I'm not doing well at all. Perhaps it's just me. That's not an uncommon experience. 😉
Sorry. Your effort is appreciated.

User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 789
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Pattern-chaser » June 30th, 2020, 10:01 am

gad-fly wrote:
June 6th, 2020, 3:27 pm
Subjective usually begins with "I think . . .", whereas Objective would begin with "What others may think . . ." Which is superior? If asked, the answer to the question should depend on the surrounding circumstances. The answer may also be: None of the above.

The benefit of being subjective lies in the clarity of source, since I must understand and appreciate what and why I am thinking in this manner. The thought may arise from gut feeling, without justification, or it may arise after debate on my head about pros and cons arraigned against one another.

The benefit of being objective lies in there being many others arraigned against single me. Am I a megalomaniac to think I can be wiser than so many? I should be humble enough to submit to the majority. Who do I think I am?

The benefit of being objective lies in quantity. However, a person cannot see more clearly in himself than he can see in others. How he can be assured that a complete debate has been undertaken as to convince him to change his mind? Even if that outside debate has been undertaken, why should he being unconvinced change his mind, to submit to what may be called the dictatorship of the majority? Confuscius once said: If I am right, I shall go against millions. The moral of the story: Confuscius spent most of his life roaming in poverty, misery, and frustration. You should know which to pick.
I've gone back to the OP here, and read it again. And now I see a simple appeal to understand "objective" as "consensus" ("What others may think", "many others arraigned against single me", "The benefit of being objective lies in quantity"). It is quite impossible to derive objectivity from consensus. It's true that we can avoid certain simple errors and biases, if we're lucky, by combining many views and hoping the biases will cancel out. Statistics tells us that some of them will, some of the time. But not always; statistics tells us that too. And if the consensus is mistaken anyway - perhaps as people believed the earth is flat, or that the Sun revolves around it - then the conclusions reached are not "objective".

Isn't this really a discussion about the individual versus the tribe (society/collective/etc)? Doesn't it ask what might happen when the individual disagrees with the tribe? Doesn't it ask how, why or if the view of the tribe is always "superior" to that of the individual? I think perhaps it does...? 🤔
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

gad-fly
Posts: 567
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly » June 30th, 2020, 11:54 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:01 am

Isn't this really a discussion about the individual versus the tribe (society/collective/etc)? Doesn't it ask what might happen when the individual disagrees with the tribe? Doesn't it ask how, why or if the view of the tribe is always "superior" to that of the individual? I think perhaps it does...? 🤔
No. You have taken it out of context. Society (rather than tribe) forcing its view on members is totalitarian. The party line may prevail, but it may also be wrong. The dictatorship of the majority is not acceptable as a dictatorship.

This thread is about taking views or expressing opinion on a position or situation, whether subjectively or objectively. It is not about asking you which is superior. The question: A or B, which? A is from your own emotion, feeling, and so on. B is your influence by others, one or more. Consensus does not enter into the picture until later, or much later. No consensus? Too bad, if you care. My comment: Neither is superior nor biased. Let both live and play it out, to the benefit of all.

User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 1935
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Sculptor1 » June 30th, 2020, 12:55 pm

gad-fly wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 11:54 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 10:01 am

Isn't this really a discussion about the individual versus the tribe (society/collective/etc)? Doesn't it ask what might happen when the individual disagrees with the tribe? Doesn't it ask how, why or if the view of the tribe is always "superior" to that of the individual? I think perhaps it does...? 🤔
No. You have taken it out of context. Society (rather than tribe) forcing its view on members is totalitarian. The party line may prevail, but it may also be wrong. The dictatorship of the majority is not acceptable as a dictatorship.

This thread is about taking views or expressing opinion on a position or situation, whether subjectively or objectively. It is not about asking you which is superior. The question: A or B, which? A is from your own emotion, feeling, and so on. B is your influence by others, one or more. Consensus does not enter into the picture until later, or much later. No consensus? Too bad, if you care. My comment: Neither is superior nor biased. Let both live and play it out, to the benefit of all.
You are very good at A and B, but piss poor about actually understanding what is being said to you.
PC is making a valid point, which seems to have gone over your head.
When it comes to objective morality - that is totalitarianism in a nutshell - Where's you objection? A and B! LOL

gad-fly
Posts: 567
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly » June 30th, 2020, 2:37 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 12:55 pm

When it comes to objective morality - that is totalitarianism in a nutshell - Where's you objection? A and B! LOL
On totalitarianism, my subjective view is No. My objective view depends on what I can have heard from you and others. Note that, sorry, my objective view may not agree with yours. If my subjective and objective do not concur, I may decide on one, or I may suspend. Sorry again.

User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 1935
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Sculptor1 » June 30th, 2020, 4:42 pm

gad-fly wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 2:37 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 12:55 pm

When it comes to objective morality - that is totalitarianism in a nutshell - Where's you objection? A and B! LOL
On totalitarianism, my subjective view is No. My objective view depends on what I can have heard from you and others. Note that, sorry, my objective view may not agree with yours. If my subjective and objective do not concur, I may decide on one, or I may suspend. Sorry again.
You do not have an objective view.

gad-fly
Posts: 567
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly » June 30th, 2020, 6:49 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 4:42 pm

You do not have an objective view.
Subjective and objective are adjective derived from Subject and Object. Collins Dictionary regarding Subject: 7. Philosophy a. that which thinks or feels as opposed to the object of thinking or feeling; the self or the mind, b. the essential nature or substance of of something as opposed to its attributes.

Subjective view is the view of the self or the mind. objective view is that not emanating from the self. This much is clear. I do not have an objective view until you and others come along for me to thank for, truly.

User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 1935
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by Sculptor1 » July 1st, 2020, 5:08 am

gad-fly wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 6:49 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
June 30th, 2020, 4:42 pm

You do not have an objective view.
Subjective and objective are adjective derived from Subject and Object. Collins Dictionary regarding Subject: 7. Philosophy a. that which thinks or feels as opposed to the object of thinking or feeling; the self or the mind, b. the essential nature or substance of of something as opposed to its attributes.

Subjective view is the view of the self or the mind. objective view is that not emanating from the self. This much is clear. I do not have an objective view until you and others come along for me to thank for, truly.
I'm glad you at least try to understand the terms you use, but your constant referral to the dictionary does not indicate that you have a deeper understanding. And sadly this is indeed the case. You cannot base an entire argument on one reading of a dictionary.

Philosophy takes thinking. When I say that you cannot have an objective view I meant that literally. Without consulting others, evidence and reason objectivity cannot be sought. You can't get that alone. Subjectivity is easy - we all do that, all the time. Objectivity is not achievable, and is no more than an aspiration to seek or a reflection of the negative. Objectivity is easy to stop when it is absent, but not so easy to establish.

gad-fly
Posts: 567
Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Subjective or Objective: Which?

Post by gad-fly » July 1st, 2020, 11:01 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
July 1st, 2020, 5:08 am
Subjectivity is easy. Objectivity is not achievable, and is no more than an aspiration to seek or a reflection of the negative. Objectivity is easy to stop when it is absent, but not so easy to establish.
You have made your point on Subjectivity and Objectivity, and on how to deal with what is not achievable or not yet established. It is time to move on. This thread is not about Subjectivity and Objectivity.

The following quotation from internet applies:
"The real difference in subjective vs. objective is that objective situations can be observed independent of personal biases and experience (i.e. data), whereas subjective situations can usually only be viewed by one person, filtered through their unique lens of personal experience, taste, emotion, and bias."

More concisely: Subjective is by one person = self; Objective is independent of personal = others. Both are view on situation.

Time to be back on track.

Post Reply