Do we really choose anything?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:04 pm
stevie wrote:And I have categorized thoughts as 1. those popping up due to earlier self-conditioing and 2. those contructed intentionally with effort.
1. Yes, thoughts "pop into our head" without our conscious permission.
They pop up because we have chosen earlier to condition ourself with them. Like you have conditioned yourself earlier to think "choosing thoughts" and so this thought pops up in your brain again and again.
RJG wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:04 pm 2. No, we cannot logically consciously or intentionally construct our own thoughts. If you don't believe me, then just ask yourself -- from which "non-constructed" thoughts will I do this construction with?"
You question is irrelevant because neuro science so far simply doesn't have a clue about how thoughts are constructed. But as a matter of fact once one has set a goal one will construct one's thoughts in a way so they will support believing in that goal and believing in the possibility of goal attainment.
RJG wrote: January 21st, 2022, 7:04 pm If you did not construct (or choose/select) the thoughts that are used to construct your new thoughts, then you constructed nothing. Your (pre-constructed) thoughts are doing the construction!

It is logically impossible to be conscious of a 'content-less' thought. All our thoughts already come pre-scripted; and pre-constructed.
Your lines of reasoning are completely irrelevant for the matter.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

stevie wrote:They pop up because we have chosen earlier to condition ourself with them.
There is NEVER a point in time where we can choose, dictate, construct, condition, influence, or shape a single thought that pops into our head.

Remember, we only live in the PRESENT. Therefore we have no say-so in the PAST events that shape and condition (or construct) our present thoughts, feelings, desires, etc. EVERYONE of our present thoughts (and feelings/desires) are constructed by past (previous) events. There is no exception! For it is not logically possible to have a thought that has not already been constructed for us. A 'content-less' (non-constructed) thought is not a thought.

And if we cannot dictate (or construct) our present thoughts, then we certainly cannot dictate our future thoughts.

stevie wrote:But as a matter of fact once one has set a goal one will construct one's thoughts in a way so they will support believing in that goal and believing in the possibility of goal attainment.
...and from what "non-constructed" thoughts will you do this construction with?


*********
AmericanKestrel wrote:If what we choose is conditioned by our desires, which are conditioned by our experiences and tendencies, how much of volition is there in the choice?
Peter is right. What we wish is conditioned.
Sculptor1 wrote:We can choose what we want, but what we want comes from a deeper place over which we have no control.
Bingo. Sculpt, there has not been much that you and I have agreed with in the past. But now I must fully agree with you (and AmericanKestrel), ...and Schopenhauer.

"We can do as we want, but we cannot want what we want". - Schopenhauer

...meaning that we are puppets to our desires (wants/will). Which means that "free-will" is a fairy tale; a man-made feel-good non-truth construct.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by Sculptor1 »

RJG wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:55 am
Sculptor1 wrote:We can choose what we want, but what we want comes from a deeper place over which we have no control.
Bingo. Sculpt, there has not been much that you and I have agreed with in the past. But now I must fully agree with you (and AmericanKestrel), ...and Schopenhauer.

"We can do as we want, but we cannot want what we want". - Schopenhauer

...meaning that we are puppets to our desires (wants/will). Which means that "free-will" is a fairy tale; a man-made feel-good non-truth construct.
Gosh this is the secind time someone has said that to be today (on another forum), there must be something in the air, or I'm slipping.
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:55 am
stevie wrote:They pop up because we have chosen earlier to condition ourself with them.
There is NEVER a point in time where we can choose, dictate, construct, condition, influence, or shape a single thought that pops into our head.
You are free to choose what you want to believe.
RJG wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:55 am Remember, ...
You should not start a statement of your chosen beliefs with "remember". Why should I pay attention to your private belief statements when behaviour science knows better?
RJG wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:55 am
stevie wrote:But as a matter of fact once one has set a goal one will construct one's thoughts in a way so they will support believing in that goal and believing in the possibility of goal attainment.
...and from what "non-constructed" thoughts will you do this construction with?
A set goal isn't different from an earlier thought. However the biochemical structures in the brain caused by such earlier intentions that make the construction of corresponding thoughts possible at a later time have not yet been indentified by neuro science.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

stevie wrote:You are free to choose what you want to believe.
...or so we have been told (indoctrinated to believe).

RJG wrote:...and from what "non-constructed" thoughts will you do this construction with?
stevie wrote:A set goal isn't different from an earlier thought. However the biochemical structures in the brain caused by such earlier intentions that make the construction of corresponding thoughts possible at a later time have not yet been indentified by neuro science.
You are missing the point. If you did not consciously choose/construct the thoughts that constructed the thoughts you are conscious of, then it does not matter what, where, or which non-conscious neurological process caused that thought, ...it certainty wasn't the conscious you!

Again, ALL our thoughts come already constructed.
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 1:24 pm
stevie wrote:You are free to choose what you want to believe.
...or so we have been told (indoctrinated to believe).

RJG wrote:...and from what "non-constructed" thoughts will you do this construction with?
stevie wrote:A set goal isn't different from an earlier thought. However the biochemical structures in the brain caused by such earlier intentions that make the construction of corresponding thoughts possible at a later time have not yet been indentified by neuro science.
You are missing the point. If you did not consciously choose/construct the thoughts that constructed the thoughts you are conscious of, then it does not matter what, where, or which non-conscious neurological process caused that thought, ...it certainty wasn't the conscious you!

Again, ALL our thoughts come already constructed.
See, we might go on interminably. As a matter of fact you have chosen your thinking and chosen to believe in it. And as a matter of fact your thinking - or at least the way you express it verbally - doesn't make sense to me and appears to be constructed based on inappropriate premises. I for my part refer to behavioural science when it comes to what individuals think and the way they think and behavioural science certainly doesn't use the verbal expressions you are using. And since there is a link between behavioural science and psychotherapy there is no doubt that relatively free will is accepted because it is the psychotherapeutic client that chooses his thoughts and practices a certain way of thinking after having been shown by the psychotherapist how the content of thoughts on the one hand and the self-identification with thoughts (i.e. the way of thinking) on the other hand determines his/her experience of self and the world.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

Stevie, I think we need to end this discussion. We are going round in circles. You are clinging to the same underlying belief - that you can choose, therefore you can choose.

Stop and take a critical look at why you believe you can choose in the first place. Just don't continually argue/assume, "I can choose, therefore I can choose". Again, answer this one question: Do you choose the thoughts that are used to choose with?

-- if you say NO, then you (the conscious you) didn't choose your choice. The choice was "given" to you by the thoughts that you didn't choose.

-- if you say YES, then answer the next question: Did you also choose the thoughts that chose the thoughts that were used to choose with?

Be honest. -- Hopefully the realization of the impossibility of choosing hits you.

And if you continue with the irrational "I can choose, therefore I can choose" argument, then I will bow out of this discussion. And take care friend, until our next discussion. -- RJG
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 10:13 am Stevie, I think we need to end this discussion. We are going round in circles.
As I have said.
RJG wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 10:13 am You are clinging to the same underlying belief - that you can choose, therefore you can choose.
No. What I said is that thoughts are not chosen (out of a set of pre-existing thoughts) but either they pop up or are intentionally constructed.
As to those that pop up: We can choose what thoughts will pop up in the future through paying attention to certain thoughts at present and keep on practicing them or not paying attention to certain thoughts and drop them.
The thoughts that pop up and that we may keep on practicing or drop are thoughts originating dependently from the conditioning by native culture, parents and social environment as revealed by behavioural science.
As to the thoughts that are intentionally constructed: those depend on goals set and beliefs cultivated.
RJG wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 10:13 am Stop and take a critical look at why you believe you can choose in the first place.
What I said was that in the first place there is no choosing of thoughts out of a set of pre-existing thoughts but there is conditioning by native culture, parents and social environment as revealed by behaviour science.
RJG wrote: January 23rd, 2022, 10:13 am Just don't continually argue/assume, "I can choose, therefore I can choose".


Again, answer this one question: Do you choose the thoughts that are used to choose with?

-- if you say NO, then you (the conscious you) didn't choose your choice. The choice was "given" to you by the thoughts that you didn't choose.

-- if you say YES, then answer the next question: Did you also choose the thoughts that chose the thoughts that were used to choose with?

Be honest. -- Hopefully the realization of the impossibility of choosing hits you.

And if you continue with the irrational "I can choose, therefore I can choose" argument, then I will bow out of this discussion. And take care friend, until our next discussion. -- RJG
Nowhere in this thread have I argued "I can choose, therefore I can choose". You are continuing to ignore what I am writing and have been writing in this thread. Please be referred to behavioural science if you want to get an idea about how conceptual thinking evolves in individuals in the first place. And be referred to psychotherapy to learn how the results of behavioural science can be applied to show to clients how they can choose what thoughts to cultivate and what thoughts to drop, to stop self-identifying with their thoughts and thus change their way of experiencing self and the world.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
User avatar
Thomyum2
Posts: 366
Joined: June 10th, 2019, 4:21 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Robert Pirsig + William James

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by Thomyum2 »

RJG wrote: January 22nd, 2022, 9:55 am
stevie wrote:They pop up because we have chosen earlier to condition ourself with them.
There is NEVER a point in time where we can choose, dictate, construct, condition, influence, or shape a single thought that pops into our head.

Remember, we only live in the PRESENT. Therefore we have no say-so in the PAST events that shape and condition (or construct) our present thoughts, feelings, desires, etc. EVERYONE of our present thoughts (and feelings/desires) are constructed by past (previous) events. There is no exception! For it is not logically possible to have a thought that has not already been constructed for us. A 'content-less' (non-constructed) thought is not a thought.

And if we cannot dictate (or construct) our present thoughts, then we certainly cannot dictate our future thoughts.

stevie wrote:But as a matter of fact once one has set a goal one will construct one's thoughts in a way so they will support believing in that goal and believing in the possibility of goal attainment.
...and from what "non-constructed" thoughts will you do this construction with?

I think stevie has the more persuasive argument here. Just because we cannot choose our thoughts doesn't imply that we cannot choose from among our thoughts. When we are confronted with a choice - a fork in the road or options from which we have to choose - each of those options will stimulate or trigger thoughts, from which will we select what we believe to be the better choice based on our beliefs and values.

This is what I meant earlier, RJG, when I said you have a four term fallacy in your argument as there is ambiguity in your use of the word 'choose': when you say we cannot 'choose your thoughts', you seem to be saying that we cannot 'choose what thoughts to have', so in this sense it doesn't really mean 'choose' thoughts but rather means 'determine' our thoughts. If 'choose' means to select or decide among several options (a definition with which you agreed earlier), we could of course never choose a thought that we hadn't had yet because there are no thoughts there to choose from. But if we have multiple thoughts (which I think you'd agree we can have), even if they are 'given' to us, we can choose from among them the ones that best serve our values or purposes. The word 'choose' is really used in common language to talk about an action or the outcome of a course of action, not as a necessary part of the process of thinking. Choosing between 'heads or tails' doesn't have to involve any thought, and yet a choice clearly can be made, and often is.

I coincidentally happened upon some philosophical writing of Charles S. Peirce this week that discusses precisely this question and can perhaps reconcile the two sides of this question. To summarize, he proposes that the purpose of the activity of thought is to create belief, and belief in turn can be understood as a 'rule for action'. When we later act upon that belief, the outcome is to create doubt, which is the stimulus for new thought, which in turn leads us to create new belief and set up a new or revised 'rule' or habit on which future actions (i.e. choices) will be based. I think this is along the lines of what stevie is saying. Though the word 'choose' is never mentioned here, he is actually describing the process by which we do what is commonly called 'choosing'. (I've included a quote below with a link to the complete article if you'd like to read it - I recommend it as it's very insightful and eloquently written, and my summary doesn't do it justice.)
And what, then, is belief? It is the demi-cadence which closes a musical phrase in the symphony of our intellectual life. We have seen that it has just three properties: First, it is something that we are aware of; second, it appeases the irritation of doubt; and, third, it involves the establishment in our nature of a rule of action, or, say for short, a habit. As it appeases the irritation of doubt, which is the motive for thinking, thought relaxes, and comes to rest for a moment when belief is reached. But, since belief is a rule for action, the application of which involves further doubt and further thought, at the same time that it is a stopping-place, it is also a new starting-place for thought. That is why I have permitted myself to call it thought at rest, although thought is essentially an action. The final upshot of thinking is the exercise of volition, and of this thought no longer forms a part; but belief is only a stadium of mental action, an effect upon our nature due to thought, which will influence future thinking.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popular_ ... Science_II
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:You are clinging to the same underlying belief - that you can choose, therefore you can choose.
stevie wrote:We can choose what thoughts will pop up in the future through paying attention to certain thoughts at present and keep on practicing them or not paying attention to certain thoughts and drop them.
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "pay attention" to thought A instead of thought B or C?
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "keep on practicing" (or focusing on) thought A, instead of thought B or C?
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "drop" thought A, and not thought B or C?

If the answer is NO, then you (the conscious you) didn't choose anything. The choices to "pay attention" and "keep practicing" and "to drop" were all "given" to you by the thoughts (or behavioral conditionings; bodily reactions) that you didn't choose!

stevie wrote:The thoughts that pop up and that we may keep on practicing or drop are thoughts originating dependently from the conditioning by native culture, parents and social environment as revealed by behavioral science.
Agreed. But this does not mean that we "consciously chose" these thoughts that were "given" to us by our position and circumstances in life.

stevie wrote:As to the thoughts that are intentionally constructed: those depend on goals set and beliefs cultivated.
…of which we have no conscious say-so over.

stevie wrote:What I said was that in the first place there is no choosing of thoughts out of a set of pre-existing thoughts but there is conditioning by native culture, parents and social environment as revealed by behaviour science.
Correct. But to be even more correct, there is no choosing whatsoever. …"out of a set of pre-existing thoughts" is irrelevant; not necessary. There is no choosing. Period. Every so-called choice that we make (react to) is behavioral; an automatic bodily reaction. There is no "choosing" going on.

RJG wrote:Again, answer this one question: Do you choose the thoughts that are used to choose with?
stevie wrote:Please be referred to behavioural science if you want to get an idea about how conceptual thinking evolves in individuals in the first place…
I don't disagree that our bodily reactions dictate our choices, but you are avoiding my question. Do you choose the thoughts that are used to choose with? ...Yes or No?

-- if you say NO, then you (the conscious you) didn't choose your choice. The choice was "given" to you by the thoughts that you didn't choose.
-- if you say YES, then answer the next question: Did you also choose the thoughts that chose the thoughts that were used to choose with?

stevie wrote:...And be referred to psychotherapy to learn how the results of behavioural science can be applied to show to clients how they can choose what thoughts to cultivate and what thoughts to drop, to stop self-identifying with their thoughts and thus change their way of experiencing self and the world.
Can we choose which thoughts are used to choose "what thoughts to cultivate, and what thoughts to drop…"??? If NO, then these thoughts are "given" to us by the thoughts that we didn't choose!

Hopefully the realization of the logical impossibility of "choosing" (via infinite regress) will soon "pop" into your head. :wink:


***********
Thomyum2 wrote:Just because we cannot choose our thoughts doesn't imply that we cannot choose from among our thoughts.
Choosing of any type/sort is logically impossible. It does not matter if we are choosing to have a thought instead of no thought, or to have thought A instead of thought B. "Choosing" is logically impossible.

Thomyum2 wrote:When we are confronted with a choice - a fork in the road or options from which we have to choose - each of those options will stimulate or trigger thoughts, from which will we select what we believe to be the better choice based on our beliefs and values.
So when faced with this fork in the road, uninvited unchosen thoughts (along with uninvited feelings/desires) will automatically pop into our consciousness ("pop into our head"), …agreed? And from these unchosen thoughts and feelings, a choice will reactively/behaviorally be made to go "left" instead of "right" (or vice versa).

The conscious you didn't choose your choice. The choice was "given" to you by the thoughts (and feelings) that you didn't choose!

Thomyum2 wrote:This is what I meant earlier, RJG, when I said you have a four term fallacy in your argument as there is ambiguity in your use of the word 'choose': when you say we cannot 'choose your thoughts', you seem to be saying that we cannot 'choose what thoughts to have', so in this sense it doesn't really mean 'choose' thoughts but rather means 'determine' our thoughts. If 'choose' means to select or decide among several options (a definition with which you agreed earlier), we could of course never choose a thought that we hadn't had yet because there are no thoughts there to choose from. But if we have multiple thoughts (which I think you'd agree we can have), even if they are 'given' to us, we can choose from among them the ones that best serve our values or purposes.
How do we "choose from among them the ones that best serve our values or purpose"? Don't we need thoughts (and/or feelings) to do this choosing?

If we don't choose these thoughts/feelings that are used to choose with, then we haven't chosen anything. The choice was "given" to us by the thoughts (and feelings) that we didn't choose!

Thomyum2 wrote:Choosing between 'heads or tails' doesn't have to involve any thought…
Without thought/feeling, a choice could not be made, period. Ask a rock to choose heads or tails, and we get no answer; no choice. Without thought (and/or feeling) how could one choose heads instead of tails (or vice versa)?

Thomyum2 wrote:I coincidentally happened upon some philosophical writing of Charles S. Peirce this week that discusses precisely this question and can perhaps reconcile the two sides of this question. To summarize, he proposes that the purpose of the activity of thought is to create belief, and belief in turn can be understood as a 'rule for action'. When we later act upon that belief, the outcome is to create doubt, which is the stimulus for new thought, which in turn leads us to create new belief and set up a new or revised 'rule' or habit on which future actions (i.e. choices) will be based.
I don't disagree that thought causes other thoughts (and/or beliefs) which in turn causes other thoughts, feelings, and resulting choices/actions. The problem is that we can't consciously cause or choose any of these thoughts or feelings that dictate our choices/actions. They are ALL "given" to us!

Thomyum2 wrote:"The final upshot of thinking is the exercise of volition, and of this thought no longer forms a part; but belief is only a stadium of mental action, an effect upon our nature due to thought, which will influence future thinking."
Since any thought that goes into the "exercise of volition" is an unchosen thought, then true volition is a “self-stultification” (a self-contradictory concept).
User avatar
Thomyum2
Posts: 366
Joined: June 10th, 2019, 4:21 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Robert Pirsig + William James

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by Thomyum2 »

RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm
Thomyum2 wrote:When we are confronted with a choice - a fork in the road or options from which we have to choose - each of those options will stimulate or trigger thoughts, from which will we select what we believe to be the better choice based on our beliefs and values.
So when faced with this fork in the road, uninvited unchosen thoughts (along with uninvited feelings/desires) will automatically pop into our consciousness ("pop into our head"), …agreed? And from these unchosen thoughts and feelings, a choice will reactively/behaviorally be made to go "left" instead of "right" (or vice versa).

The conscious you didn't choose your choice. The choice was "given" to you by the thoughts (and feelings) that you didn't choose!
I disagree. Even if we assume that thoughts are unconscious reactions, it does not follow that the choices with which they are involved are necessarily also unconscious reactions. Just because thoughts and feelings influence choices does not mean that they determine choices.

You’re making a presumption that thoughts/feelings and other unconscious activity are the sole factor in the outcomes and that the conscious mind can never intervene in the process at any point – that’s begging the question. If that’s one of your premises, that’s fine, but it’s not proven by your logic.

RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm
How do we "choose from among them the ones that best serve our values or purpose"? Don't we need thoughts (and/or feelings) to do this choosing?

If we don't choose these thoughts/feelings that are used to choose with, then we haven't chosen anything. The choice was "given" to us by the thoughts (and feelings) that we didn't choose!
That thoughts or feelings play a role in choices does not imply that they are the only factors in a choice or that there is nothing else at work.

In my view, Peirce is right, we make choices not just based on what we think or how we feel, but on what we believe. And yes, belief involves thoughts and feelings as well, but it is more than that because belief is also based on what is good and what is right – those are our values. Values transcend both thought and feeling because they come from the core of our being, from who we are. Maybe for some people or at some times a choice is nothing but reacting to our thoughts and our feelings at a given moment, but some choices require reaching beyond just these things.
RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm
Thomyum2 wrote:Choosing between 'heads or tails' doesn't have to involve any thought…
Without thought/feeling, a choice could not be made, period. Ask a rock to choose heads or tails, and we get no answer; no choice. Without thought (and/or feeling) how could one choose heads instead of tails (or vice versa)?
A rock can’t answer because it can’t speak, not because it can’t choose.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that animals and even inanimate objects make choices - that even water can be said to ‘choose’ the path of least resistance. I asked what makes this any different than the choice a thinking person makes, but you didn’t respond. I wasn’t asking it facetiously – there’s an insight to be found in this, so I ask it again here.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm
RJG wrote:You are clinging to the same underlying belief - that you can choose, therefore you can choose.
stevie wrote:We can choose what thoughts will pop up in the future through paying attention to certain thoughts at present and keep on practicing them or not paying attention to certain thoughts and drop them.
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "pay attention" to thought A instead of thought B or C?
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "keep on practicing" (or focusing on) thought A, instead of thought B or C?
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "drop" thought A, and not thought B or C?

If the answer is NO, then you (the conscious you) didn't choose anything. The choices to "pay attention" and "keep practicing" and "to drop" were all "given" to you by the thoughts (or behavioral conditionings; bodily reactions) that you didn't choose!
You keep on misunderstanding. From my perspective your view isn't supported by science which is why I engage in conversation with you. This topic touches behavioural science and its applications in practice: Psychotherapy is based on the client choosing to pay attention to certain thoughts but to drop other thoughts after being informed by the therapist about the effects of thoughts that are cultivated and identified with.

RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm
stevie wrote:The thoughts that pop up and that we may keep on practicing or drop are thoughts originating dependently from the conditioning by native culture, parents and social environment as revealed by behavioral science.
Agreed. But this does not mean that we "consciously chose" these thoughts that were "given" to us by our position and circumstances in life.
I've never asserted that a small child can choose how it is being conceptually conditioned by native culture, parents and social environment. However depending on the kind of basic conditioning an adolescent or adult may choose how to modify her/his basic conditioning through choosing which thoughts that pop up are cultivated and which thoughts that pop up are dropped and through setting new goals/commitments.
RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm
stevie wrote:As to the thoughts that are intentionally constructed: those depend on goals set and beliefs cultivated.
…of which we have no conscious say-so over.
Ah, c'mon, setting goals and commit oneself to something of course is a conscious decision.
RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm
stevie wrote:What I said was that in the first place there is no choosing of thoughts out of a set of pre-existing thoughts but there is conditioning by native culture, parents and social environment as revealed by behaviour science.
Correct. But to be even more correct, there is no choosing whatsoever.
As far as adolescents or adults with appropriate education are concerned there is of course choosing (s. above).
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm
stevie wrote:...And be referred to psychotherapy to learn how the results of behavioural science can be applied to show to clients how they can choose what thoughts to cultivate and what thoughts to drop, to stop self-identifying with their thoughts and thus change their way of experiencing self and the world.
Can we choose which thoughts are used to choose "what thoughts to cultivate, and what thoughts to drop…"??? If NO, then these thoughts are "given" to us by the thoughts that we didn't choose!

Hopefully the realization of the logical impossibility of "choosing" (via infinite regress) will soon "pop" into your head. :wink:
That's not to the point. Based on education (and basic conditioning) an adolescents or adult may seek information about thinking and thoughts. That adolescents or adult may then come across behavioural sciences and learn about conditioning of thinking its effects on general cognition and experience and based on this may correct her/his own thinking through cultivating some thoughts but drop other thoughts.
Or an adolescent or adult may mentally suffer and seek help and finally attend a psychotherapist who reveals to her/him the deficiency of her/his thinking and the suffering effected through certain types of thoughts and the self-identifying way of thinking these thoughts. Based on this therapy the client then can develop the ability to choose what thoughts he/she cultivates and what thoughts he/she drops.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

And finally as to your invalid 'infinite regress' argument
RJG wrote: January 24th, 2022, 3:33 pm Can we choose which thoughts are used to choose "what thoughts to cultivate, and what thoughts to drop…"??? If NO, then these thoughts are "given" to us by the thoughts that we didn't choose!

Hopefully the realization of the logical impossibility of "choosing" (via infinite regress) will soon "pop" into your head. :wink:
Your premise that there have to be thoughts "given" (out of nowhere) in order to choose "what thoughts to cultivate, and what thoughts to drop…" is a belief lacking scientific information.

You hear sounds (when hearing someone speak) or see forms (when reading) and your brain synthesizes corresponding thoughts based on earlier conditioning when having learned language. So yes, since these are based on linguistic conditionings you do not choose these thoughts. But you continually hear sounds or see forms that have "thoughts" as their linguistic object, so that conflicting thoughts about "thoughts" are synthesized. Now having come across a set of thoughts about thoughts (views about thoughts) that you can remember you are in a position to compare these thoughts and choose the thoughts that you take as a basis for choosing "what thoughts to cultivate, and what thoughts to drop…".

Now your 'infinite regress' argument only holds if you aim at the impossibility of absolutely free will because then you may object that since I have written "you are in a position to compare these thoughts and choose the thoughts that you take as a basis for choosing "what thoughts to cultivate, and what thoughts to drop…"" that underlined "choose" again needs to be based on a thought that is either "given" or there is absolutely free will to generate thoughts out of nothing.
But I've already denied absolutely free will and I have accepted relatively free will.

What does "relatively free will" mean here?
It means that based on an impermanent and constantly changing conceptual conditioning which causes the arising of thoughts depending on outer stimuli you are still free to choose between several optional thoughts that arise from the momentary conceptual conditioning as memories of views although the momentary conceptual conditioning at a given moment is beyond your control. But since you have that relatively free will to choose through choosing you simultaneously influence that momentary conceptual conditioning which exactly is the mechanism through which you choose what thoughts will pop up in the future and what thoughts won't pop up anymore.

Now what is important here is that this 'relatively free will' isn't a philosophical postulate but it is a scientific evidence.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:The conscious "you" didn't choose your choice. The choice was "given" to you by the thoughts (and feelings) that you didn't choose!
Thomyum2 wrote:Just because thoughts and feelings influence choices does not mean that they determine choices.
Yes, technically I think I have to agree with you here. We don't really know the actual cause/determiner of our choices. We only assume that the preceding thought/feeling/desire was the chooser behind our choice. -- BUT nonetheless, we do know, with logical certainty, that we do not consciously choose our own choices - because that would be logically impossible.

Since we didn't consciously choose whatever is involved in choosing our choice (be it thoughts/feelings or something else), then our choice was "given" to us by that which we didn't choose.

Thomyum2 wrote:You’re making a presumption that thoughts/feelings and other unconscious activity are the sole factor in the outcomes…
Not so. I don't know the true causes of our choices, all I know is that we didn't consciously choose whatever it was.

Thomyum2 wrote:…and that the conscious mind can never intervene in the process at any point – that’s begging the question.
No, it is not begging the question. It is logically impossible for the conscious mind to intervene in the choosing process, or in any process for that matter. The mind is only conscious of that which it is "given"; that which pops into its/our head. The mind can't think until it is "given" thoughts to think with!

Thomyum2 wrote:That thoughts or feelings play a role in choices does not imply that they are the only factors in a choice or that there is nothing else at work.
Agreed. But the point is that whatever it is that is involved in choosing a choice, we did not consciously choose that. It was "given" to us.

Thomyum2 wrote:In my view, Peirce is right, we make choices not just based on what we think or how we feel, but on what we believe. And yes, belief involves thoughts and feelings as well, but it is more than that because belief is also based on what is good and what is right – those are our values. Values transcend both thought and feeling because they come from the core of our being, from who we are. Maybe for some people or at some times a choice is nothing but reacting to our thoughts and our feelings at a given moment, but some choices require reaching beyond just these things.
It is the same dilemma. It doesn't matter if it is thoughts, feelings, desires, values, or the man on the moon that determines our choices. If we don't consciously choose whatever it is that does the choosing, then we didn't choose.

RJG wrote:Without thought/feeling, a choice could not be made, period. Ask a rock to choose heads or tails, and we get no answer; no choice. Without thought (and/or feeling) how could one choose heads instead of tails (or vice versa)?
Thomyum2 wrote:A rock can’t answer because it can’t speak, not because it can’t choose.
When I say "choose", I am meaning "consciously" (knowingly) choose.


**************
stevie wrote:Your premise that there have to be thoughts "given" (out of nowhere) in order to choose "what thoughts to cultivate, and what thoughts to drop…" is a belief lacking scientific information.
The logically impossibility [X<X] to author our own thoughts has nothing to do with science. If something is logically impossible, then all the science in the world could not make the impossible, somehow possible.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021