RJG wrote:You are clinging to the same underlying belief - that you can choose, therefore you can choose.
stevie wrote:We can choose what thoughts will pop up in the future through paying attention to certain thoughts at present and keep on practicing them or not paying attention to certain thoughts and drop them.
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "pay attention" to thought A instead of thought B or C?
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "keep on practicing" (or focusing on) thought A, instead of thought B or C?
-Did you consciously CHOOSE to "drop" thought A, and not thought B or C?
If the answer is NO, then you (the conscious you) didn't choose anything. The choices to "pay attention" and "keep practicing" and "to drop" were all "
given" to you by the thoughts (or behavioral conditionings; bodily reactions) that you
didn't choose!
stevie wrote:The thoughts that pop up and that we may keep on practicing or drop are thoughts originating dependently from the conditioning by native culture, parents and social environment as revealed by behavioral science.
Agreed. But this does not mean that we "consciously chose" these thoughts that were "
given" to us by our position and circumstances in life.
stevie wrote:As to the thoughts that are intentionally constructed: those depend on goals set and beliefs cultivated.
…of which we have
no conscious say-so over.
stevie wrote:What I said was that in the first place there is no choosing of thoughts out of a set of pre-existing thoughts but there is conditioning by native culture, parents and social environment as revealed by behaviour science.
Correct. But to be even more correct, there is no choosing whatsoever. …"out of a set of pre-existing thoughts" is irrelevant; not necessary. There is no choosing. Period. Every so-called choice that we make (react to) is behavioral; an automatic bodily reaction. There is no "choosing" going on.
RJG wrote:Again, answer this one question: Do you choose the thoughts that are used to choose with?
stevie wrote:Please be referred to behavioural science if you want to get an idea about how conceptual thinking evolves in individuals in the first place…
I don't disagree that our bodily reactions dictate our choices, but you are avoiding my question.
Do you choose the thoughts that are used to choose with? ...Yes or No?
-- if you say NO, then you (the conscious you) didn't choose your choice. The choice was "
given" to you by the thoughts that you
didn't choose.
-- if you say YES, then answer the next question: Did you also choose the thoughts that chose the thoughts that were used to choose with?
stevie wrote:...And be referred to psychotherapy to learn how the results of behavioural science can be applied to show to clients how they can choose what thoughts to cultivate and what thoughts to drop, to stop self-identifying with their thoughts and thus change their way of experiencing self and the world.
Can we choose which thoughts are used to choose "what thoughts to cultivate, and what thoughts to drop…"??? If NO, then these thoughts are "given" to us by the thoughts that we
didn't choose!
Hopefully the realization of the logical impossibility of "choosing" (via infinite regress) will soon "pop" into your head.
***********
Thomyum2 wrote:Just because we cannot choose our thoughts doesn't imply that we cannot choose from among our thoughts.
Choosing of any type/sort is logically impossible. It does not matter if we are choosing to have a thought instead of no thought, or to have thought A instead of thought B. "Choosing" is logically impossible.
Thomyum2 wrote:When we are confronted with a choice - a fork in the road or options from which we have to choose - each of those options will stimulate or trigger thoughts, from which will we select what we believe to be the better choice based on our beliefs and values.
So when faced with this fork in the road, uninvited unchosen thoughts (along with uninvited feelings/desires) will automatically pop into our consciousness ("pop into our head"), …agreed? And from these unchosen thoughts and feelings, a choice will reactively/behaviorally be made to go "left" instead of "right" (or vice versa).
The conscious you didn't choose your choice. The choice was "
given" to you by the thoughts (and feelings) that you
didn't choose!
Thomyum2 wrote:This is what I meant earlier, RJG, when I said you have a four term fallacy in your argument as there is ambiguity in your use of the word 'choose': when you say we cannot 'choose your thoughts', you seem to be saying that we cannot 'choose what thoughts to have', so in this sense it doesn't really mean 'choose' thoughts but rather means 'determine' our thoughts. If 'choose' means to select or decide among several options (a definition with which you agreed earlier), we could of course never choose a thought that we hadn't had yet because there are no thoughts there to choose from. But if we have multiple thoughts (which I think you'd agree we can have), even if they are 'given' to us, we can choose from among them the ones that best serve our values or purposes.
How do we "choose from among them the ones that best serve our values or purpose"? Don't we need thoughts (and/or feelings) to do this choosing?
If we don't choose these thoughts/feelings that are used to choose with, then we haven't chosen anything. The choice was "
given" to us by the thoughts (and feelings) that we
didn't choose!
Thomyum2 wrote:Choosing between 'heads or tails' doesn't have to involve any thought…
Without thought/feeling, a choice could not be made, period. Ask a rock to choose heads or tails, and we get no answer; no choice. Without thought (and/or feeling) how could one choose heads instead of tails (or vice versa)?
Thomyum2 wrote:I coincidentally happened upon some philosophical writing of Charles S. Peirce this week that discusses precisely this question and can perhaps reconcile the two sides of this question. To summarize, he proposes that the purpose of the activity of thought is to create belief, and belief in turn can be understood as a 'rule for action'. When we later act upon that belief, the outcome is to create doubt, which is the stimulus for new thought, which in turn leads us to create new belief and set up a new or revised 'rule' or habit on which future actions (i.e. choices) will be based.
I don't disagree that thought causes other thoughts (and/or beliefs) which in turn causes other thoughts, feelings, and resulting choices/actions. The problem is that we can't consciously cause or choose any of these thoughts or feelings that dictate our choices/actions. They are ALL "
given" to us!
Thomyum2 wrote:"The final upshot of thinking is the exercise of volition, and of this thought no longer forms a part; but belief is only a stadium of mental action, an effect upon our nature due to thought, which will influence future thinking."
Since any thought that goes into the "exercise of volition" is an
unchosen thought, then true volition is a “self-stultification” (a self-contradictory concept).