Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
snt
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Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by snt »

After some discussions with @Astro Cat (an astrophysics student) it became clear to me that humanity might be set to the task of exploration of an aspect of reality that today is for the most part neglected and unexplored.

German philosopher Martin Heidegger mentioned in an interview with a Buddhist monk in 1964 that after a thorough examination of Western philosophy and thinking he came to the conclusion that one question was never asked: the question of Being. How could it be that the question was first asked in 1964?

As can be seen in following the arguments by @Astro Cat the concept 'Being' is taken for granted in the consideration what deserves consideration.
Astro Cat wrote: June 18th, 2022, 6:00 am How could God be the foundation for anything at all without being God? In other words, doesn't it seem a necessary condition for God = God to be true before God can somehow make A = A to be true? But that is Identity: it seems as though identity is a necessary precondition for God to be God rather than the other way around!
Astro Cat wrote: June 20th, 2022, 2:08 pm If existence "cannot apply" to God, then I'm not entirely sure what's even being said. Either a god exists or one does not. My post was directed at arguments with a god proposed to exist.

A door to an 'other' world of meaning

Of reason it can be said that it encapsulates anything of which it can be said to posses the nature Being, since without reason, those beings would remain unknown. Therefore, since logic cannot explain its own origin (its potential for Being), there is a world of a different nature than Being that is still relevant for Being since it precedes Being (a world that lays beyond Being as seen from within a subjective perspective).

Being cannot stand on its own. The limit of logic and knowledge is indicative of a more fundamental area of relevance and it shows a door to an 'other' world of 'meaning' that demands philosophical exploration.

A door to 'beyond logic and knowledge'
A door to 'beyond logic and knowledge'

Philosophers and scientists have predicted that at some point in time, humans should start exploring that 'other' world. A world of meaning that is not 'repeatable'.

"Within Western philosophy, the realm beyond space has traditionally been considered a realm beyond physics — the plane of God’s existence in Christian theology. In the early eighteenth century, Gottfried Leibniz’s “monads” — which he imagined to be the primitive elements of the universe — existed, like God, outside space and time. His theory was a step toward emergent space-time, but it was still metaphysical, with only a vague connection to the world of concrete things.

Albert Einstein foresaw these difficulties. “Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.


https://gizmodo.com/a-new-way-of-thinki ... 1741498475

French philosopher Emmanuel Levinas - an icon of Western philosophy that is researched by dedicated scholars today - has attempted to explore that 'other world' and he did it for the purpose of moral philosophy and his vision of (in my opinion valid) Ethics as First Philosophy.

Levinas his work shows that one is to pursue a quest for a 'meaning' that precedes knowledge, i.e. a meaning that precedes useful or 'repeatable' meaning.

Note: The concepts beyond and precede refer to the same aspect. What precedes a subjective experience on a fundamental level lays beyond it from within that subjective experience. This could be confusing. The term beyond is mostly used within the scope of human interests and desires (e.g. to find purpose) while one would more likely use the term precede from an independent fundamental philosophical perspective since one would then address that aspect outside of subjective experience.

Levinas commentator Giuseppe Lissa provides the following description of Levinas’ project Otherwise than Being (his latest work):

By investigating the depths of consciousness, by comparing its passivity to the process of ageing, Levinas investigates a "reality unknowable, but perhaps interpretable by a thinking that no longer claims to be an exercise in knowledge … because this thinking is engaged in the search for a meaning that precedes all knowledge."

In the film Absent God (1:06:22) Levinas says the following:

"The creation of the world itself should get its meaning starting from goodness."


Non-locality

There is evidence that physical reality (i.e. 'the repeatable world') is non-local on a fundamental level.

The world is non-local all the way down
“Our result proves that non-locality is an even more fundamental property of our world than was previously known,” says Giacomini.
https://insidetheperimeter.ca/the-world ... -way-down/

Is nonlocality inherent in all identical particles in the universe?
The photon emitted by the monitor screen and the photon from the distant galaxy at the depths of the universe seem to be entangled only by their identical nature (by their 'kind'). This is a great mystery that science will soon confront.
https://phys.org/news/2020-03-nonlocali ... verse.html

Non-local Universe - Reality as a Dream
Ultimately this means that all of physical reality as we perceive it is an illusion and exists only in an illusionary dream like state. Instead of reality being viewed as Newtonian and mechanistic, under the context of non-locality it is probably best understood of as a dream for it has the same properties.

What this seems to imply is that the entire universe is a mental construct and exists purely in a psychological gestalt, for within a psychological gestalt, space, dimensions and time are all constructs.

https://www.gestaltreality.com/articles ... -universe/

Non-local is a strange concept. To repeat the quote of Albert Einstein:

“Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path [i.e. explore that 'other' world of meaning]. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.

To explore the indicated 'other' world would involve exploring a meaning within the scope of what in physics is considered to be non-local.

Conclusion

From a philosophical perspective there is an 'other' world of meaning to explore and it could be of vital importance that the human does explore that world in the right way to secure longer term survival and prosperity.

As can be seen in the work of Emmanuel Levinas, exploration of that other world might be of vital importance for morality but there may be other important interests.

Chinese philosopher Laozi (Lao Tzu) has attempted exploration in book Tao Te Ching by using poetry.

"The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal Name."

An expert on the book mentioned the following: "Logic has its place in human affairs, but it isn’t everything. There is a limit to what we can understand through rationality and reasoning. To transcend that limit, we need to fully engage the intuition."

--

Questions:

1) What is your opinion on the idea of a world of 'meaning' that precedes or lays beyond logic and knowledge?
2) Why would it be important that humans discover a method to explore that world?
snt
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by snt »

Non-locality as a term has a reference to locality, the familiar 'repeatable world'. If you would stripe that word away, what's left is 'non' and there is not much more to say about it.

In the same time, it can be established that that 'non' concerns an 'other' world of meaning.

Albert Einstein: “Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.
snt
Posts: 110
Joined: June 2nd, 2022, 4:43 am

Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by snt »

Another clue: the concept 'not not' does not have a word.

Philosopher Mark Linsenmayer (Mark Lint), one of the hosts of the podcast Partially Examined Life, sings about it in the song Double Negative Theology.

"If there is a God, God is not not one. But don't try to say what he is because it not not annoy him a bit. If there were a God, I would not not be wrong. Don't think there is a God, who would not not be song. ..."

Download: http://marklint.com/songfiles/Double_Negative_Theology_8-30-14m.mp3

Background of song:
https://partiallyexaminedlife.com/2014/ ... -theology/

Purchase albums of philosophy songs: https://partiallyexaminedlife.com/produ ... ory/music/
stevie
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by stevie »

snt wrote: June 26th, 2022, 4:22 am
Questions:

1) What is your opinion on the idea of a world of 'meaning' that precedes or lays beyond logic and knowledge?
2) Why would it be important that humans discover a method to explore that world?
1) it appears that "meaning" here is a mental construction/fabrication as are "logic" and "knowledge", so the question does not make sense to me. It is like asking "what thought precedes the first thought?"
2) I guess that question has to do with religion or spirituality which may be dispensable.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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JackDaydream
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by JackDaydream »

snt wrote: June 26th, 2022, 4:22 am After some discussions with @Astro Cat (an astrophysics student) it became clear to me that humanity might be set to the task of exploration of an aspect of reality that today is for the most part neglected and unexplored.

German philosopher Martin Heidegger mentioned in an interview with a Buddhist monk in 1964 that after a thorough examination of Western philosophy and thinking he came to the conclusion that one question was never asked: the question of Being. How could it be that the question was first asked in 1964?

As can be seen in following the arguments by @Astro Cat the concept 'Being' is taken for granted in the consideration what deserves consideration.
Astro Cat wrote: June 18th, 2022, 6:00 am How could God be the foundation for anything at all without being God? In other words, doesn't it seem a necessary condition for God = God to be true before God can somehow make A = A to be true? But that is Identity: it seems as though identity is a necessary precondition for God to be God rather than the other way around!
Astro Cat wrote: June 20th, 2022, 2:08 pm If existence "cannot apply" to God, then I'm not entirely sure what's even being said. Either a god exists or one does not. My post was directed at arguments with a god proposed to exist.

A door to an 'other' world of meaning

Of reason it can be said that it encapsulates anything of which it can be said to posses the nature Being, since without reason, those beings would remain unknown. Therefore, since logic cannot explain its own origin (its potential for Being), there is a world of a different nature than Being that is still relevant for Being since it precedes Being (a world that lays beyond Being as seen from within a subjective perspective).

Being cannot stand on its own. The limit of logic and knowledge is indicative of a more fundamental area of relevance and it shows a door to an 'other' world of 'meaning' that demands philosophical exploration.


mystical-door-beyond-knowledge.jpg


Philosophers and scientists have predicted that at some point in time, humans should start exploring that 'other' world. A world of meaning that is not 'repeatable'.

"Within Western philosophy, the realm beyond space has traditionally been considered a realm beyond physics — the plane of God’s existence in Christian theology. In the early eighteenth century, Gottfried Leibniz’s “monads” — which he imagined to be the primitive elements of the universe — existed, like God, outside space and time. His theory was a step toward emergent space-time, but it was still metaphysical, with only a vague connection to the world of concrete things.

Albert Einstein foresaw these difficulties. “Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.


https://gizmodo.com/a-new-way-of-thinki ... 1741498475

French philosopher Emmanuel Levinas - an icon of Western philosophy that is researched by dedicated scholars today - has attempted to explore that 'other world' and he did it for the purpose of moral philosophy and his vision of (in my opinion valid) Ethics as First Philosophy.

Levinas his work shows that one is to pursue a quest for a 'meaning' that precedes knowledge, i.e. a meaning that precedes useful or 'repeatable' meaning.

Note: The concepts beyond and precede refer to the same aspect. What precedes a subjective experience on a fundamental level lays beyond it from within that subjective experience. This could be confusing. The term beyond is mostly used within the scope of human interests and desires (e.g. to find purpose) while one would more likely use the term precede from an independent fundamental philosophical perspective since one would then address that aspect outside of subjective experience.

Levinas commentator Giuseppe Lissa provides the following description of Levinas’ project Otherwise than Being (his latest work):

By investigating the depths of consciousness, by comparing its passivity to the process of ageing, Levinas investigates a "reality unknowable, but perhaps interpretable by a thinking that no longer claims to be an exercise in knowledge … because this thinking is engaged in the search for a meaning that precedes all knowledge."

In the film Absent God (1:06:22) Levinas says the following:

"The creation of the world itself should get its meaning starting from goodness."


Non-locality

There is evidence that physical reality (i.e. 'the repeatable world') is non-local on a fundamental level.

The world is non-local all the way down
“Our result proves that non-locality is an even more fundamental property of our world than was previously known,” says Giacomini.
https://insidetheperimeter.ca/the-world ... -way-down/

Is nonlocality inherent in all identical particles in the universe?
The photon emitted by the monitor screen and the photon from the distant galaxy at the depths of the universe seem to be entangled only by their identical nature (by their 'kind'). This is a great mystery that science will soon confront.
https://phys.org/news/2020-03-nonlocali ... verse.html

Non-local Universe - Reality as a Dream
Ultimately this means that all of physical reality as we perceive it is an illusion and exists only in an illusionary dream like state. Instead of reality being viewed as Newtonian and mechanistic, under the context of non-locality it is probably best understood of as a dream for it has the same properties.

What this seems to imply is that the entire universe is a mental construct and exists purely in a psychological gestalt, for within a psychological gestalt, space, dimensions and time are all constructs.

https://www.gestaltreality.com/articles ... -universe/

Non-local is a strange concept. To repeat the quote of Albert Einstein:

“Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path [i.e. explore that 'other' world of meaning]. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.

To explore the indicated 'other' world would involve exploring a meaning within the scope of what in physics is considered to be non-local.

Conclusion

From a philosophical perspective there is an 'other' world of meaning to explore and it could be of vital importance that the human does explore that world in the right way to secure longer term survival and prosperity.

As can be seen in the work of Emmanuel Levinas, exploration of that other world might be of vital importance for morality but there may be other important interests.

Chinese philosopher Laozi (Lao Tzu) has attempted exploration in book Tao Te Ching by using poetry.

"The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal Name."

An expert on the book mentioned the following: "Logic has its place in human affairs, but it isn’t everything. There is a limit to what we can understand through rationality and reasoning. To transcend that limit, we need to fully engage the intuition."

--

Questions:

1) What is your opinion on the idea of a world of 'meaning' that precedes or lays beyond logic and knowledge?
2) Why would it be important that humans discover a method to explore that world?

The idea of a 'world' beyond special locality makes sense with reference to the realm of ideas and the mythic dimension. It has been touched upon by so many writers including those you refer to and many others, including Carl Jung in his concept of the collective unconscious, the physicist, David Bohm, in his description of an implicate order and Huston Smith, in his model of dimensions and levels beyond time and space.

As for methods to get in touch with it, most people do it all the time, through imagination and ideas. It may be about the nature of subjectivity as opposed to objectivity. Whether it is beyond logic though may be a slightly different matter because ideas have their own logic, such as Kant's a priori or Jung's archetypes. Also, it may be problematic to see it as separate from the perspective of time and space, because the two coincide in human experiential knowledge.
Atla
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by Atla »

What physics has found is the non-locality of our world and some other.
True philosophy points to the Moon
Atla
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by Atla »

Atla wrote: June 26th, 2022, 11:06 am What physics has found is the non-locality of our world and some other.
*not some other
True philosophy points to the Moon
snt
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by snt »

JackDaydream wrote: June 26th, 2022, 10:45 am The idea of a 'world' beyond special locality makes sense with reference to the realm of ideas and the mythic dimension. It has been touched upon by so many writers including those you refer to and many others, including Carl Jung in his concept of the collective unconscious, the physicist, David Bohm, in his description of an implicate order and Huston Smith, in his model of dimensions and levels beyond time and space.

As for methods to get in touch with it, most people do it all the time, through imagination and ideas. It may be about the nature of subjectivity as opposed to objectivity. Whether it is beyond logic though may be a slightly different matter because ideas have their own logic, such as Kant's a priori or Jung's archetypes. Also, it may be problematic to see it as separate from the perspective of time and space, because the two coincide in human experiential knowledge.
Thank you for the valuable insight and references.

Yes, perhaps it is obvious that the indicated world of meaning has been touched upon by many. However, can it be said that Albert Einstein's prophecy has been fulfilled and did humans discover a plausible method to explore that 'other' world?

Mysticism is looked down upon today as it appears. I have seen many comments on this forum that indicate that such is the case. It may be at question whether mysticism is the right way for exploration. Do you have an opinion on that?

"Mysticism refers to the attainment of insight in ultimate or hidden truths."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism

Further, is 'touched upon' sufficient? If it can be said that it can be done better, should the human be driven to do so? What can potentially motivate a human to explore world that cannot be 'seen' or 'said'?

What is clear to me is that it requires a special motivation to initiate exploration since the indicated 'other' world is hidden from sight. That may have resulted in ego based attempts to unlock value from that other world.

As it appears to me, a way to connect meaningfully to the indicated 'other' world is through emotions, intuitions and spiritual experience. This can provide the basis for ideas such as 'common sense moral intuition' that perform well in practice, however when it concerns philosophy, there are many deep questions to be answered, for example for the purpose of grounding morality in a robust and correct sense.
snt
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by snt »

What might be of interest to know is that philosopher William James - the father of American psychology - was president of the Society for Psychical Research that researched phenomena from an 'other' world (i.e. ψ psi or paranormal).

The association still exists today:

"Founded in 1882, the SPR was the first organisation to conduct scholarly research into human experiences that challenge contemporary scientific models."
https://www.spr.ac.uk/

Philosopher and psychologist, William James (1842–1910), who taught at Harvard in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, was one of the most important early figures in the history of psychological science. William James was perhaps the first eminent psychological scientist to be a supporter of psychical (ψ psi) research.

In an interesting twist on the story of William James and the psychics, Gary Schwartz, director of Behavioral Medicine Clinic at Yale University, published an article in 2010 reporting two “proof of concept” experiments supporting the idea that William James may be continuing his psychical research—“from the other side.”
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JackDaydream
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by JackDaydream »

snt wrote: June 26th, 2022, 12:34 pm
JackDaydream wrote: June 26th, 2022, 10:45 am The idea of a 'world' beyond special locality makes sense with reference to the realm of ideas and the mythic dimension. It has been touched upon by so many writers including those you refer to and many others, including Carl Jung in his concept of the collective unconscious, the physicist, David Bohm, in his description of an implicate order and Huston Smith, in his model of dimensions and levels beyond time and space.

As for methods to get in touch with it, most people do it all the time, through imagination and ideas. It may be about the nature of subjectivity as opposed to objectivity. Whether it is beyond logic though may be a slightly different matter because ideas have their own logic, such as Kant's a priori or Jung's archetypes. Also, it may be problematic to see it as separate from the perspective of time and space, because the two coincide in human experiential knowledge.
Thank you for the valuable insight and references.

Yes, perhaps it is obvious that the indicated world of meaning has been touched upon by many. However, can it be said that Albert Einstein's prophecy has been fulfilled and did humans discover a plausible method to explore that 'other' world?

Mysticism is looked down upon today as it appears. I have seen many comments on this forum that indicate that such is the case. It may be at question whether mysticism is the right way for exploration. Do you have an opinion on that?

"Mysticism refers to the attainment of insight in ultimate or hidden truths."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism

Further, is 'touched upon' sufficient? If it can be said that it can be done better, should the human be driven to do so? What can potentially motivate a human to explore world that cannot be 'seen' or 'said'?

What is clear to me is that it requires a special motivation to initiate exploration since the indicated 'other' world is hidden from sight. That may have resulted in ego based attempts to unlock value from that other world.

As it appears to me, a way to connect meaningfully to the indicated 'other' world is through emotions, intuitions and spiritual experience. This can provide the basis for ideas such as 'common sense moral intuition' that perform well in practice, however when it concerns philosophy, there are many deep questions to be answered, for example for the purpose of grounding morality in a robust and correct sense.
I have always had a leaning towards the mystical and the esoteric. I have read some mystic writers in the Christian tradition, like St John of the Cross"s 'The Dark Night of the Soul', as well as mystical aspects of Eastern traditions, as well as the metaphysical poets, such as John Donne. The metaphysical poets were more mystical than metaphysical. Poetry has often been an important part of mystical expression, including Blake, WB Yeats and Walt Whitman.

While I have a disposition and orientation towards the mystical, I try to balance it with rationality and logic. It involves what Derrida suggests as being the two ways of knowing, mythos and logos. However, possibly the most important philosophers of the twentieth century, Ludwig Wittgenstein suggested the importance of being silent beyond one cannot speak. This was a recognition of the limits of language, although philosophy does involve trying to find explanations and the language to try to make sense of life and reality, in a process of demystification.
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by Astro Cat »

I will see about posting this week @snt
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
--Richard Feynman
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by snt »

Astro Cat wrote: June 27th, 2022, 12:31 am I will see about posting this week @snt
It is not needed to respond. I understand that you are super busy as an astro student. 🐱🔭🪐👩‍🎓🏳️‍🌈

The topic merely cited you because of our past discussions on the subject. I wish you a great week!
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

snt wrote: June 26th, 2022, 4:22 am After some discussions with @Astro Cat (an astrophysics student) it became clear to me that humanity might be set to the task of exploration of an aspect of reality that today is for the most part neglected and unexplored.

German philosopher Martin Heidegger mentioned in an interview with a Buddhist monk in 1964 that after a thorough examination of Western philosophy and thinking he came to the conclusion that one question was never asked: the question of Being. How could it be that the question was first asked in 1964?

As can be seen in following the arguments by @Astro Cat the concept 'Being' is taken for granted in the consideration what deserves consideration.
Astro Cat wrote: June 18th, 2022, 6:00 am How could God be the foundation for anything at all without being God? In other words, doesn't it seem a necessary condition for God = God to be true before God can somehow make A = A to be true? But that is Identity: it seems as though identity is a necessary precondition for God to be God rather than the other way around!
Astro Cat wrote: June 20th, 2022, 2:08 pm If existence "cannot apply" to God, then I'm not entirely sure what's even being said. Either a god exists or one does not. My post was directed at arguments with a god proposed to exist.

A door to an 'other' world of meaning

Of reason it can be said that it encapsulates anything of which it can be said to posses the nature Being, since without reason, those beings would remain unknown. Therefore, since logic cannot explain its own origin (its potential for Being), there is a world of a different nature than Being that is still relevant for Being since it precedes Being (a world that lays beyond Being as seen from within a subjective perspective).

Being cannot stand on its own. The limit of logic and knowledge is indicative of a more fundamental area of relevance and it shows a door to an 'other' world of 'meaning' that demands philosophical exploration.


mystical-door-beyond-knowledge.jpg


Philosophers and scientists have predicted that at some point in time, humans should start exploring that 'other' world. A world of meaning that is not 'repeatable'.

"Within Western philosophy, the realm beyond space has traditionally been considered a realm beyond physics — the plane of God’s existence in Christian theology. In the early eighteenth century, Gottfried Leibniz’s “monads” — which he imagined to be the primitive elements of the universe — existed, like God, outside space and time. His theory was a step toward emergent space-time, but it was still metaphysical, with only a vague connection to the world of concrete things.

Albert Einstein foresaw these difficulties. “Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.


https://gizmodo.com/a-new-way-of-thinki ... 1741498475

French philosopher Emmanuel Levinas - an icon of Western philosophy that is researched by dedicated scholars today - has attempted to explore that 'other world' and he did it for the purpose of moral philosophy and his vision of (in my opinion valid) Ethics as First Philosophy.

Levinas his work shows that one is to pursue a quest for a 'meaning' that precedes knowledge, i.e. a meaning that precedes useful or 'repeatable' meaning.

Note: The concepts beyond and precede refer to the same aspect. What precedes a subjective experience on a fundamental level lays beyond it from within that subjective experience. This could be confusing. The term beyond is mostly used within the scope of human interests and desires (e.g. to find purpose) while one would more likely use the term precede from an independent fundamental philosophical perspective since one would then address that aspect outside of subjective experience.

Levinas commentator Giuseppe Lissa provides the following description of Levinas’ project Otherwise than Being (his latest work):

By investigating the depths of consciousness, by comparing its passivity to the process of ageing, Levinas investigates a "reality unknowable, but perhaps interpretable by a thinking that no longer claims to be an exercise in knowledge … because this thinking is engaged in the search for a meaning that precedes all knowledge."

In the film Absent God (1:06:22) Levinas says the following:

"The creation of the world itself should get its meaning starting from goodness."


Non-locality

There is evidence that physical reality (i.e. 'the repeatable world') is non-local on a fundamental level.

The world is non-local all the way down
“Our result proves that non-locality is an even more fundamental property of our world than was previously known,” says Giacomini.
https://insidetheperimeter.ca/the-world ... -way-down/

Is nonlocality inherent in all identical particles in the universe?
The photon emitted by the monitor screen and the photon from the distant galaxy at the depths of the universe seem to be entangled only by their identical nature (by their 'kind'). This is a great mystery that science will soon confront.
https://phys.org/news/2020-03-nonlocali ... verse.html

Non-local Universe - Reality as a Dream
Ultimately this means that all of physical reality as we perceive it is an illusion and exists only in an illusionary dream like state. Instead of reality being viewed as Newtonian and mechanistic, under the context of non-locality it is probably best understood of as a dream for it has the same properties.

What this seems to imply is that the entire universe is a mental construct and exists purely in a psychological gestalt, for within a psychological gestalt, space, dimensions and time are all constructs.

https://www.gestaltreality.com/articles ... -universe/

Non-local is a strange concept. To repeat the quote of Albert Einstein:

“Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path [i.e. explore that 'other' world of meaning]. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.

To explore the indicated 'other' world would involve exploring a meaning within the scope of what in physics is considered to be non-local.

Conclusion

From a philosophical perspective there is an 'other' world of meaning to explore and it could be of vital importance that the human does explore that world in the right way to secure longer term survival and prosperity.

As can be seen in the work of Emmanuel Levinas, exploration of that other world might be of vital importance for morality but there may be other important interests.

Chinese philosopher Laozi (Lao Tzu) has attempted exploration in book Tao Te Ching by using poetry.

"The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal Name."

An expert on the book mentioned the following: "Logic has its place in human affairs, but it isn’t everything. There is a limit to what we can understand through rationality and reasoning. To transcend that limit, we need to fully engage the intuition."

--

Questions:

1) What is your opinion on the idea of a world of 'meaning' that precedes or lays beyond logic and knowledge?
2) Why would it be important that humans discover a method to explore that world?

Questions:

1) What is your opinion on the idea of a world of 'meaning' that precedes or lays beyond logic and knowledge?
2) Why would it be important that humans discover a method to explore that world?


snt!

Excellent questions. Accordingly, first of all, one has to remember that asking the right questions, is that of the synthetic a priori. Meaning, if one were not even able to ask 'the right questions' in science or otherwise, what kinds if discoveries would there be, and what kind of impacts would there be on one's quality (Qualia) of life?

So let's see, perhaps that speaks a little to the second question. One's quality of life is enhanced by the ability to query the right concepts. Whether it is critique of pure reason, critique of manufactured products, critique of interpersonal relationships, cognitive science, etc., the intrinsic need to wonder why things are the way they are, and the corresponding causes associated with them, is rich in meaning, purpose and one's quality of life.

The 'idea of a world' could be noumenal, in that the Will to breath fire into the cosmological equations involve purpose, meaning, feeling, intuition, quality of life and so on. Corresponding to the existence of consciousness (conscious Beings), provides for that sense of self-awareness from which we cannot escape. Humanistically, mere instinct alone, is only half the 'equation'. Even Hume acquiesced to sentience as a cause for such a need for human's practicing empirical science. For example, the definition of the Will:

Schopenhauer used the word will as a human's most familiar designation for the concept that can also be signified by other words such as desire, striving, wanting, effort and urging. Schopenhauer's philosophy holds that all nature, including man, is the expression of an insatiable will. It is through the will, the in-itself of all existence, that humans find all their suffering. Desire for more is what causes this suffering. He argues that only aesthetic pleasure creates momentary escape from the will. Schopenhauer's concept of desire has strong parallels in Buddhist thought. Buddhism identifies the individual's pervasive sense of dissatisfaction as driving craving, roughly similar to what Schopenhauer would call the will to life. Both assert that remedies for this condition include contemplative, ascetic activities.

Taking the transcendental idealism of Immanuel Kant as his starting point, Schopenhauer argues that the world humans experience around them—the world of objects in space and time and related in causal ways—exists solely as "representation" (Vorstellung) dependent on a cognizing subject, not as a world that can be considered to exist in itself (i.e. independently of how it appears to the subject's mind). One's knowledge of objects is thus knowledge of mere phenomena rather than things-in-themselves. Schopenhauer identifies the thing-in-itself—the inner essence of everything—as will: a blind, unconscious, aimless striving devoid of knowledge, outside of space and time, and free of all multiplicity.

Schopenhauer argues that will is the Kantian thing-in-itself: the single essence underlying all objects and phenomena. Kant believed that space and time were merely the forms of our intuition by which we must perceive the world of phenomena, and these factors were absent from the thing-in-itself. Schopenhauer pointed out that anything outside of time and space could not be differentiated, so the thing-in-itself must be one. All things that exist, including human beings, must be part of this fundamental unity. The manifestation of the single will into the multiplicity of objects we experience is the will's objectivation. The will, as thing-in-itself, lies outside of the principle of sufficient reason (in all its forms) and is thus groundless (though each of the will's phenomena is subject to that principle).

All phenomena embodies essential striving: electricity and gravity, for instance, are described as fundamental forces of the will. Human capacity for cognition, Schopenhauer asserts, is subordinate to the demands of the will. Moreover, everything that wills necessarily suffers. Schopenhauer presents a pessimistic picture on which unfulfilled desires are painful, and pleasure is merely the sensation experienced at the instant one such pain is removed. However, most desires are never fulfilled, and those that are fulfilled are instantly replaced by more unfulfilled ones.


Philosophically, could the Will be that Kantian thing-in-itself which breath's fire into the Hawking equation's? A part of some noumenal world? A Hawking informational paradox?

In other words, since science has yet to develop a universal model of certainty that includes the nature of conscious existence, could the Will correspond with other phenomena found in physics (Higgs/Boson God particle, quantum tunneling, Non-locality, Wheeler's PAP, etc.)? Since the will is a metaphysical quality of consciousness, and the foregoing physical phenomena also seems partially meta-physical, what correlations are relevant to "a world of meaning"?

Proposed correlations might be:

1. Physical/metaphysical: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
2. Material/Immaterial : consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
3. Quantity/Quality: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/ physics)
4. Time/eternity: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
5. Subjective/objective: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
6. Mind/Matter: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
7. Abstract/Concrete: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)

Just a starting point to your query... !
“Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present. There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each man as he really is.”
― William James
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

Starting point

Logic and knowledge = causation
“Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present. There is each man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each man as he really is.”
― William James
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Samana Johann
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by Samana Johann »

snt wrote: June 26th, 2022, 4:22 am
A door to an 'other' world of meaning



Questions:

1) What is your opinion on the idea of a world of 'meaning' that precedes or lays beyond logic and knowledge?
2) Why would it be important that humans discover a method to explore that world?
Where ever there is mine-ing, meaning, there world take place. Why searching for meanings, world, when clear that what ever comes into be-ing, is subject to decay, good SNT?
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