Dao and Spontaneous Generation

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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NathanIsDivine
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Dao and Spontaneous Generation

Post by NathanIsDivine »

New user here.

I've been reading about Laozi and Daoism, and I've come across the idea of zi ran, the spontaneous generation from the nature of things.

In the view of the Chinese philosophers, how can the concept of God reconcile with the idea of zi ran? If zi ran explains how the objects of the world organize and develop, how can there be any need of God? How did the Chinese philosophers view God and what He is capable of? Did Chinese philosophers not believe in a God?
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Dao and Spontaneous Generation

Post by Pattern-chaser »

NathanIsDivine wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 9:55 pm New user here.
Welcome!! 🙂


NathanIsDivine wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 9:55 pm I've been reading about Laozi and Daoism, and I've come across the idea of zi ran, the spontaneous generation from the nature of things.

In the view of the Chinese philosophers, how can the concept of God reconcile with the idea of zi ran? If zi ran explains how the objects of the world organize and develop, how can there be any need of God? How did the Chinese philosophers view God and what He is capable of? Did Chinese philosophers not believe in a God?
When asked about my religious beliefs, I answer that I'm a Gaian Daoist. This sounds like I might be a fount of knowledge and understanding of Daoism, but sadly this could not be farther from the truth. I follow Daoism because the ideas I have encountered in my reading have impressed and fascinated me. There are lots of concepts associated with Daoism, such as 'wu wei' (also this), and the like.

Zi ran is a new one on me, but I've looked it up on Wikipedia, as perhaps you have too? I look forward to seeing what others contribute to this thread, and to participating if I have anything useful to offer. 👍🙂
Pattern-chaser

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gad-fly
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Re: Dao and Spontaneous Generation

Post by gad-fly »

NathanIsDivine wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 9:55 pm New user here.

I've been reading about Laozi and Daoism, and I've come across the idea of zi ran, the spontaneous generation from the nature of things.

In the view of the Chinese philosophers, how can the concept of God reconcile with the idea of zi ran? If zi ran explains how the objects of the world organize and develop, how can there be any need of God? How did the Chinese philosophers view God and what He is capable of? Did Chinese philosophers not believe in a God?
Zi Ran are two Chinese characters which can be translated as nature, naturally, of course, let it be, and so on. It is an attitude, outlook, or perspective in life and performance.

Taoism or Daoism are the same. Originating in China, this crypto religion has never gained much influence outside the country. In recent time some has apply it to justify refusal of religious belief. "What do I believe? I am a Taoist. I believe in nature." Actually Taoism is much deeper than that. Suffice to say: Taoism is not anti-religion. Let it be, it says. Each to his own. No happiness in forcing. Leave everything in peace to find it own way. Goal achieved.

Taoism advocates against abstention. Unlike most major religions, it is not against sex. Take what you want. Fine as long as you feel comfortable, but don't indulge. What is the bar? Find out yourself.
NathanIsDivine
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Re: Dao and Spontaneous Generation

Post by NathanIsDivine »

gad-fly wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 12:22 pm
NathanIsDivine wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 9:55 pm New user here.

I've been reading about Laozi and Daoism, and I've come across the idea of zi ran, the spontaneous generation from the nature of things.

In the view of the Chinese philosophers, how can the concept of God reconcile with the idea of zi ran? If zi ran explains how the objects of the world organize and develop, how can there be any need of God? How did the Chinese philosophers view God and what He is capable of? Did Chinese philosophers not believe in a God?
Zi Ran are two Chinese characters which can be translated as nature, naturally, of course, let it be, and so on. It is an attitude, outlook, or perspective in life and performance.

Taoism or Daoism are the same. Originating in China, this crypto religion has never gained much influence outside the country. In recent time some has apply it to justify refusal of religious belief. "What do I believe? I am a Taoist. I believe in nature." Actually Taoism is much deeper than that. Suffice to say: Taoism is not anti-religion. Let it be, it says. Each to his own. No happiness in forcing. Leave everything in peace to find it own way. Goal achieved.

Taoism advocates against abstention. Unlike most major religions, it is not against sex. Take what you want. Fine as long as you feel comfortable, but don't indulge. What is the bar? Find out yourself.
Did Chinese philosophers view people as more in control of their fate than Europeans? That people can choose to do what is their nature, without pressure? I've heard that the Chinese look at the world as a complex web of causes and effects, and that this web can be changed by the decisions of people. Is this different from how European philosophers thought of the world? Did they see people's fate as an isolated pathway that is already set in stone?
gad-fly
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Re: Dao and Spontaneous Generation

Post by gad-fly »

NathanIsDivine wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 9:17 pm
gad-fly wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 12:22 pm
NathanIsDivine wrote: October 2nd, 2022, 9:55 pm New user here.

I've been reading about Laozi and Daoism, and I've come across the idea of zi ran, the spontaneous generation from the nature of things.

In the view of the Chinese philosophers, how can the concept of God reconcile with the idea of zi ran? If zi ran explains how the objects of the world organize and develop, how can there be any need of God? How did the Chinese philosophers view God and what He is capable of? Did Chinese philosophers not believe in a God?
Zi Ran are two Chinese characters which can be translated as nature, naturally, of course, let it be, and so on. It is an attitude, outlook, or perspective in life and performance.

Taoism or Daoism are the same. Originating in China, this crypto religion has never gained much influence outside the country. In recent time some has apply it to justify refusal of religious belief. "What do I believe? I am a Taoist. I believe in nature." Actually Taoism is much deeper than that. Suffice to say: Taoism is not anti-religion. Let it be, it says. Each to his own. No happiness in forcing. Leave everything in peace to find it own way. Goal achieved.

Taoism advocates against abstention. Unlike most major religions, it is not against sex. Take what you want. Fine as long as you feel comfortable, but don't indulge. What is the bar? Find out yourself.
Did Chinese philosophers view people as more in control of their fate than Europeans? That people can choose to do what is their nature, without pressure? I've heard that the Chinese look at the world as a complex web of causes and effects, and that this web can be changed by the decisions of people. Is this different from how European philosophers thought of the world? Did they see people's fate as an isolated pathway that is already set in stone?
Hard to say whether Chinese are more fatalistic. Suffice to say that there is no marked distinction in this global village, between Chinese and Westerners.

I would suggest that all long-suffering people would become more fatalistic. Imagine you going through the Opium wars and one hundred years of humiliation. Imagine you in Belgian Congo, with your hands cut off by colonizers. Imagine you being slave in the American south. How do you bring yourself at peace?

As to classical Chinese philosophers centuries earlier, I would say they are more layback, not fervent/fanatic, and less missioned to change the world. Read Confucius and Ming Dynasty philosophers. Most suggest let things take their course.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Dao and Spontaneous Generation

Post by Pattern-chaser »

gad-fly wrote: October 3rd, 2022, 12:22 pm Originating in China, this crypto religion has never gained much influence outside the country.
Nevertheless, there are 70 or 80 million Daoists, mostly in China, as you say, which is still more than the population of the UK, for example.
Merriam-Webster wrote: crypto adjective

Definition of crypto (Entry 2 of 2)
1 : not openly avowed or declared —often used in combination: crypto-fascist
...
I'm not clear how Daoism is a "crypto" religion. 🤔 Although not as popular or widespread as many other belief systems, the idea of yin and yang is widely known … but perhaps not quite so widely understood (?).
Pattern-chaser

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gad-fly
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Joined: October 23rd, 2019, 4:48 pm

Re: Dao and Spontaneous Generation

Post by gad-fly »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 4th, 2022, 11:16 am
I'm not clear how Daoism is a "crypto" religion. 🤔 Although not as popular or widespread as many other belief systems, the idea of yin and yang is widely known … but perhaps not quite so widely understood (?).
You have to find out yourself. Yin and Yan is polarization, not religious belief. Briefly, there is no God and creation in Taoism.
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