The January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month is Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger.

Endless and infinite

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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SteveKlinko
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Re: Endless and infinite

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psyreporter wrote: May 13th, 2022, 1:18 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: May 13th, 2022, 10:23 am
psyreporter wrote: May 13th, 2022, 9:50 amCan you explain how Now can introduce an end (finitude) for physical reality?
Now does not have a Begin so there is no need for an End. See https://theintermind.com/#Timelessness my latest thinking on Time.
It concerns Timelessness of Conscious Space. You previously indicated that the Physical World develops independently from Conscious Space to later - after millions of years evolution - Connect to Conscious Space and that lower life such as bacteria are potentially not connected to Conscious Space.
I don't know if Bacteria are Connected to Conscious Space or not. But I think they probably are.
psyreporter wrote: May 13th, 2022, 1:18 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 18th, 2022, 8:25 am"Today it is clear that there is a causality trajectory from the Physical World to the Conscious World and not the other way around."
...
The reality of the situation is that the Neural Activity in the Brain causes or produces in some way the Redness Experience.
SteveKlinko wrote: April 26th, 2022, 7:33 am The Neurons evolve into what they are. If there is a survival advantage to developing the capacity to Connect then that is what the Neurons will do over millions of years. If Microbes have any Conscious Experience they will have to be able to Connect to Consciousness.
If the indicated Timeless Now originates from Conscious Space, does that imply that lower life such as bacteria potentially do not experience time?
I don't know what Bacteria can Experience. Maybe Pain, Hunger, basic desires.

psyreporter wrote: May 13th, 2022, 1:18 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: May 4th, 2022, 7:32 am Begin is always relative to Now.
How can a begin always be relative to Timeless Now when Physical World is not always connected to Conscious Space?
Begin is Relative to the Timeless Now Deductively and Logically.
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Nightmare
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Re: Endless and infinite

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If someone would like to read the six pages Essay of mine initial reasoning, could escape cleared from all its doubts.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Endless and infinite

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Nightmare wrote: May 29th, 2022, 4:13 pm If someone would like to read the six pages Essay of mine initial reasoning, could escape cleared from all its doubts.
Link?
value
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Re: Endless and infinite

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Interesting topic!

It is an important subject for many areas of thinking which most prominently is visible in the Infinite Monkey Theorem that is seriously considered by many people today.

Infinite Monkey Theorem
https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums ... =1&t=16601

In many diverse cases - for example the idea that time must have had a beginning - the error is made to exclude the observer from the consideration. Mathematical infinity is merely a potential infinity which cannot logically be applicable to reality since it requires a begin that is introduced by an observer.

An example:
Terrapin Station wrote: February 18th, 2020, 8:32 am The whole point is that if there's an infinite amount of time prior to Tn then we can't get to Tn because you can't complete an infinity of time prior to Tn. Why not? Because infinity isn't a quantity or amount we can ever reach or complete.
'To complete' implies a begin and what can explain a begin? It is the observer that logically introduces a begin in such a reasoning. The observer is completely excluded from the consideration.
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Consul
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Re: Endless and infinite

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value wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 12:45 pm An example:
Terrapin Station wrote: February 18th, 2020, 8:32 am The whole point is that if there's an infinite amount of time prior to Tn then we can't get to Tn because you can't complete an infinity of time prior to Tn. Why not? Because infinity isn't a quantity or amount we can ever reach or complete.
'To complete' implies a begin and what can explain a begin? It is the observer that logically introduces a begin in such a reasoning. The observer is completely excluded from the consideration.
If there is no first time t0, then for all times tm there are infinitely many times t < tm; but there is no (impossible) completing of an actual temporal infinity, because the actual temporal infinity involved has always been complete.
Moreover, the temporal distance (interval) between any time tm < Tn and Tn is finite; so there is no time tm in the infinite past from where you cannot "get to" Tn in a finite amount of time. You certainly cannot "get from" -∞ to Tn, since there is no such time in the past as -∞.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
value
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Re: Endless and infinite

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Consul wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 6:19 pm
value wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 12:45 pm An example:
Terrapin Station wrote: February 18th, 2020, 8:32 am The whole point is that if there's an infinite amount of time prior to Tn then we can't get to Tn because you can't complete an infinity of time prior to Tn. Why not? Because infinity isn't a quantity or amount we can ever reach or complete.
'To complete' implies a begin and what can explain a begin? It is the observer that logically introduces a begin in such a reasoning. The observer is completely excluded from the consideration.
If there is no first time t0, then for all times tm there are infinitely many times t < tm; but there is no (impossible) completing of an actual temporal infinity, because the actual temporal infinity involved has always been complete.
The idea of 'completing' an actual (beginning-less) infinity is absurd in my opinion. Can you please explain how an actual infinity can contain numerable parts (Tn) that allow for mathematical calculation?

Consul wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 6:19 pmMoreover, the temporal distance (interval) between any time tm < Tn and Tn is finite; so there is no time tm in the infinite past from where you cannot "get to" Tn in a finite amount of time. You certainly cannot "get from" -∞ to Tn, since there is no such time in the past as -∞.
The explanation for the relation between tm and Tn is lacking.

I suspect that @Terrapin Station would ask: what about historical Tn states? If those events cannot be considered facts that obtain whether a mind is looking or not then it would undermine physicalist theory. If those states are to be considered facts independent of mind then historical Tn would be applicable in the form of -∞.
Terrapin Station wrote: February 18th, 2020, 6:57 pmFacts are states of affairs--ways that things happen to be, or (dynamic) arrangements of things in the world. Facts obtain whether people exist or not.

The problem is the "continuing flux of change." There's this state, and then it changes to that state, etc.

To get to any particular state, T, if there's an infinity of previous change states, it's not possible to arrive at T, because an infinity can't be completed to get to T.

So in other words, change state T is the destination. Well, before change state T arrives, change state T-1 has to obtain. But before that can obtain, change state T-2 has to obtain. And before that, change state T-3, etc. If that goes on for infinity, it's not possible for T to arrive, because it's not possible for all of the "T minuses" to pass to get to T.
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Re: Endless and infinite

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value wrote: November 24th, 2022, 9:24 am
Consul wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 6:19 pm If there is no first time t0, then for all times tm there are infinitely many times t < tm; but there is no (impossible) completing of an actual temporal infinity, because the actual temporal infinity involved has always been complete.
The idea of 'completing' an actual (beginning-less) infinity is absurd in my opinion. Can you please explain how an actual infinity can contain numerable parts (Tn) that allow for mathematical calculation?
Actual infinities aren't completable because they aren't successively constructible. No action or process like adding, counting, or stacking can possibly result in an actual infinity of things.

Let's say that Tn is the year 2022 and consider the following beginningless series of years: -∞, …, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1,…, 2020, 2021, 2022.
There is no first year, so every year is preceded by infinitely many years; but every year is only finitely many years away from any other year, so there are always well-defined finite temporal distances between any pair of years—which can of course be unimaginably large, since there are infinitely many finite numbers of years.
value wrote: November 24th, 2022, 9:24 am
Consul wrote: November 22nd, 2022, 6:19 pmMoreover, the temporal distance (interval) between any time tm < Tn and Tn is finite; so there is no time tm in the infinite past from where you cannot "get to" Tn in a finite amount of time. You certainly cannot "get from" -∞ to Tn, since there is no such time in the past as -∞.
The explanation for the relation between tm and Tn is lacking.

I suspect that @Terrapin Station would ask: what about historical Tn states? If those events cannot be considered facts that obtain whether a mind is looking or not then it would undermine physicalist theory. If those states are to be considered facts independent of mind then historical Tn would be applicable in the form of -∞.
Terrapin Station wrote: February 18th, 2020, 6:57 pmFacts are states of affairs--ways that things happen to be, or (dynamic) arrangements of things in the world. Facts obtain whether people exist or not.

The problem is the "continuing flux of change." There's this state, and then it changes to that state, etc.

To get to any particular state, T, if there's an infinity of previous change states, it's not possible to arrive at T, because an infinity can't be completed to get to T.

So in other words, change state T is the destination. Well, before change state T arrives, change state T-1 has to obtain. But before that can obtain, change state T-2 has to obtain. And before that, change state T-3, etc. If that goes on for infinity, it's not possible for T to arrive, because it's not possible for all of the "T minuses" to pass to get to T.
Even if a beginningless infinite series is defined dynamically in terms of changes of states, we have a well-defined sequence. For although T is preceded by infinitely many changes, the number of changes between T and any T-n prior to T is always finite; so there is no problem of "arrival", since T-n,…,T is always a finite series of changes.
There is no completion of an infinite series of changes, since this series has always been a complete infinity by virtue of every change in the series being preceded by infinitely many prior changes.

The question But how do you get from -∞ to T? is simply ill-posed, because there is no such infinite process as getting from -∞ to T. There are only infinitely many finite processes of getting from T-n to T.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
value
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Re: Endless and infinite

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Consul wrote: November 24th, 2022, 1:52 pm
value wrote: November 24th, 2022, 9:24 amThe idea of 'completing' an actual (beginning-less) infinity is absurd in my opinion. Can you please explain how an actual infinity can contain numerable parts (Tn) that allow for mathematical calculation?
Actual infinities aren't completable because they aren't successively constructible. No action or process like adding, counting, or stacking can possibly result in an actual infinity of things.

Let's say that Tn is the year 2022 and consider the following beginningless series of years: -∞, …, -3, -2, -1, 0, 1,…, 2020, 2021, 2022.
There is no first year, so every year is preceded by infinitely many years; but every year is only finitely many years away from any other year, so there are always well-defined finite temporal distances between any pair of years—which can of course be unimaginably large, since there are infinitely many finite numbers of years.
@Terrapin Station specifically argues that change states (T) are to be considered facts that obtain independent of mind. That means that mathematics cannot explain away his argument because it is supposedly to be applicable to 'really real' physical reality (i.e. those change states are physical in coherence with physicalist theory).

Consul wrote: November 24th, 2022, 1:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: February 18th, 2020, 6:57 pmTo get to any particular state, T, if there's an infinity of previous change states, it's not possible to arrive at T, because an infinity can't be completed to get to T.
Even if a beginningless infinite series is defined dynamically in terms of changes of states, we have a well-defined sequence. For although T is preceded by infinitely many changes, the number of changes between T and any T-n prior to T is always finite; so there is no problem of "arrival", since T-n,…,T is always a finite series of changes.
There is no completion of an infinite series of changes, since this series has always been a complete infinity by virtue of every change in the series being preceded by infinitely many prior changes.
That would result in the absurd assumption that physical change states T have sprung into existence from nothing. The why question of change states cannot be neglected in the argument, otherwise it would be similar to saying "God did it'.

Consul wrote: November 24th, 2022, 1:52 pmThe question But how do you get from -∞ to T? is simply ill-posed, because there is no such infinite process as getting from -∞ to T. There are only infinitely many finite processes of getting from T-n to T.
The logic seems to be invalid since an actual infinity cannot be counted (infinitely many wouldn't be possible).

If there is a finite relationship between change states (T) then why could it be argued that those numerable states span backward infinitely? Or alternatively, what would be the justification for the conclusion that time (T) must have had a beginning?
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Re: Endless and infinite

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value wrote: November 26th, 2022, 9:15 amThe logic seems to be invalid since an actual infinity cannot be counted (infinitely many wouldn't be possible).
See: Countably infinite
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Re: Endless and infinite

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Consul wrote: November 26th, 2022, 5:06 pm See: Countably infinite
This doesn't mean that if you started counting the members of a countably infinite set and lived forever, there would be some time in the future when you have counted all of its members.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
value
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Re: Endless and infinite

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Consul wrote: November 26th, 2022, 5:14 pm
Consul wrote: November 26th, 2022, 5:06 pm See: Countably infinite
This doesn't mean that if you started counting the members of a countably infinite set and lived forever, there would be some time in the future when you have counted all of its members.
You are making an example of the argument that I provided in my first post in this topic: the observer is erroneously excluded from the consideration.

The indicated concept 'countably infinite' cannot be applicable independently to reality. Countably infinite depends on a counter that introduces a begin by which it is merely a potential infinity (endless and not beginning-less).
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