Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Bohm2
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

Post by Bohm2 »

Fafner88 wrote:As you may know, there are enormous disagreements among linguists and philosophers about what language is. Linguists like Chomsky have a very narrow conception of language, which seems to me more of a philosophical thesis then a scientific hypothesis....For all we know, Chomsky may be right that grammar is innate and universal (which is an empirical question), but saying that semantics and pragmatics are peripheral to language is a philosophical claim which can't be settled via empirical means.
It's been argued that Chomsky's (internalist) approach is the only reasonable approach to take because externalist theories are scientifically intractable. A readable overview of the arguments can be found in a set of papers by Eran Asoulin. His PhD thesis (first link below), in particular, is well worth reading:
I then discussed the externalist approach to semantics with reference to the thought experiments of Putnam, Burge, et. al. as well as a more detailed discussion of Fodor’s externalist semantic theory. I raised a number of objections in regard to externalist theories of language, the main ones being that externalist theories extend the scope of a theory of language to such an extent that such a theory becomes scientifically intractable; though even if such a theory is in principle amendable to scientific investigation (which seems unlikely), I argued that externalist theories implicitly rely on the very semantic notions that they purport to explain.
Language And Scientific Explanation: Where Does Semantics Fit In?
http://unsworks.unsw.edu.au/fapi/datast ... 0/SOURCE02

Why externalism is not part of cognitive science
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... clnk&gl=ca

The Creative Aspect of Language Use and the Implications for Linguistic Science
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/9647/1/ ... cience.pdf
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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I raised a number of objections in regard to externalist theories of language, the main ones being that externalist theories extend the scope of a theory of language to such an extent that such a theory becomes scientifically intractable
Who cares if externalism is scientifically intractable? If it is, too bad for science.
I argued that externalist theories implicitly rely on the very semantic notions that they purport to explain.
There's nothing wrong about that either.
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Fafner88 wrote:
By "Cartesian" I didn't mean dualism. Descartes had a solipsistic conception of the mind according to which thought is independent of the existence of the external world or a linguistic community. Even though philosophers have abandoned Cartesian dualism, many of them (like Chomsky) still share his general idea of what the mind is. Chomsky by the way is a self proclaimed Cartesian and he even wrote a book titled "Cartesian linguistics".
Did Chomsky not recognise the biological basis of behaviour which is demonstrated by correlations between brains and thinking minds?

If thinking minds are the bases of all behaviours, what of animals that don't think but nevertheless behave? Solipsism seems to be the only way forward from the supposition that thinking minds are the bases of all behaviours. I have the plural form "bases" but of course solipsism has only the one basis. In order for the basis to remain singular despite the multiple minds we would have to have absolute thought perhaps based upon pure reason.
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Belinda wrote:If thinking minds are the bases of all behaviours, what of animals that don't think but nevertheless behave? Solipsism seems to be the only way forward from the supposition that thinking minds are the bases of all behaviours. I have the plural form "bases" but of course solipsism has only the one basis. In order for the basis to remain singular despite the multiple minds we would have to have absolute thought perhaps based upon pure reason.
I don't quite understand your comment, but by "solipsistic" I didn't meant the theory that there's only one mind, but the idea that the mind is a wholly "internal" phenomena which doesn't logically depend on the external world. It's also called internalism, which is contrasted with externalism (what I take to be Wittgenstein's own view).
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Fafner88 wrote:Who cares if externalism is scientifically intractable? If it is, too bad for science.
But you argued that:
Chomsky have a very narrow conception of language, which seems to me more of a philosophical thesis then a scientific hypothesis.
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Bohm2 wrote:
Fafner88 wrote:Who cares if externalism is scientifically intractable? If it is, too bad for science.
But you argued that:
Chomsky have a very narrow conception of language, which seems to me more of a philosophical thesis then a scientific hypothesis.
So?

I mean, it's fine to be interested in syntax, but to claim that syntax is what language is really about, is transgressing the legitimate limits of science.
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Fafner88 wrote:
I mean, it's fine to be interested in syntax, but to claim that syntax is what language is really about, is transgressing the legitimate limits of science.
Who claims this? Syntax is formal structure, or mayhap psycholinguistics. Linguistics is wider than formal structure as it includes at least sociolinguistics, abstract local relations , and psycholinguistics, not to mention phonetics and etymology. If you want to discuss sociolinguistics but you don't want to discuss psycholingistics or logical relations abstracted from natural language can you say why you feel this way ?
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Belinda wrote:Who claims this?
Chomsky. For example:
Chomsky therefore concludes that languages cannot be defined or individuated extensionally or mind-externally, and hence the only scientifically interesting conception of a ‘language’ is the ‘I-language’ view . . . Chomsky says of E-languages that “all scientific approaches have simply abandoned these elements of what is called ‘language’ in common usage” (Chomsky 1988, 37); and “we can define E-language in one way or another or not at all, since the concept appears to play no role in the theory of language”
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/linguistics/#ILanELan
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Maybe "all scientific approaches" have abandoned all but the study of l-language. However Wittgenstein's is a social theory of language ; social theories are human sciences or what they are normally called here 'social sciences'.

Wittgenstein's is a social theory of language, it is about 'parole'----- not 'langue'.
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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One thing is for sure, after our ancestors moved beyond vocalizations with only one meaning (sense and reference) and developed an expanded vocabulary with words which could be combined into subject-predicate statements, their mental life was changed forever. Other animals have intentional thoughts, no doubt about it, but only humans think with words and convey complex ideas. - CW
The central question of human existence is not why we are here, but rather why we behave the way we do - http://onhumanaffairs.blogspot.com/
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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I agree that humans try to convey complex ideas with words, but it seems that those very words or language can be misleading. I mention this because in creating words to designate one concept or the other, we may miss to accurately describe "reality", If the term or word falls into our common vernacular, there´s a tendency for it to go unnoticed, so we can miss out on "the truth", due to common usage.

Examples, may be the terms "nothing", and "now". The first, as we have discovered, was not originally intended to mean that there is no oxygen, or other elements imperceptible by the naked eye. It was meant to designate the concept that our plain senses cannot perceive anything.

The second, is meant to designate the present, but the reality may be that time flows continuously, so that there is no real now.

Maybe language is limiting or flawed, despite the fact that it may have developed our intellect. It may also be an obstacle to "truth". I suppose that language can always be improved upon, as we gain a better picture of reality.
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Belinda wrote:Maybe "all scientific approaches" have abandoned all but the study of l-language. However Wittgenstein's is a social theory of language ; social theories are human sciences or what they are normally called here 'social sciences'.

Wittgenstein's is a social theory of language, it is about 'parole'----- not 'langue'.
But this is exactly what Wittgenstein was arguing against: there's no language without society, while Chomsky thinks there is. According to Chomsky, it's a mere coincidence that humans use language for communication, and therefore the social aspects of language are not what defines it as such.
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Fafner88 wrote:Chomsky therefore concludes that languages cannot be defined or individuated extensionally or mind-externally, and hence the only scientifically interesting conception of a ‘language’ is the ‘I-language’ view . . . Chomsky says of E-languages that “all scientific approaches have simply abandoned these elements of what is called ‘language’ in common usage” (Chomsky 1988, 37); and “we can define E-language in one way or another or not at all, since the concept appears to play no role in the theory of language”
Chomsky favours the “internalist” perspective as the only scientific interesting conception of language because:
In symbolic systems of other animals, symbols appear to be linked directly to mind-independent events. The symbols of human language are sharply different. Even in the simplest cases, there is no word-object relation where words are mind-independent entities. There is no reference relation, in the technical sense familiar from Frege and Peirce to contemporary externalists.
Thus, much of Chomsky’s scepticism about externalist semantics is a scepticism about the possibility of making any scientific use of truth and reference in linguistic semantics. His scepticism about truth and reference stems from some deep metaphysical puzzles that he likes to raise about the existence of things in the world for words to refer to. In several places, Chomsky argues that names of cities, e.g., 'London' can refer both to something concrete and abstract, animate and inanimate. He provides a number of examples if you read his stuff; convincingly, in my opinion. To give a few examples:
Language can of course be used for communication, as can any aspect of what we do: style of dress, gesture, and so on. And it can be and commonly is used for much else. Statistically speaking, for whatever that is worth, the overwhelming use of language is internal – for thought. It takes an enormous act of will to keep from talking to oneself in every waking moment – and asleep as well, often a considerable annoyance. The distinguished neurologist Harry Jerison among others expressed a stronger view, holding that “language did not evolve as a communication system…. the initial evolution of language is more likely to have been…for the construction of a real world,” as a “tool for thought.” Not only in the functional dimension, but also in all other respects – semantic, syntactic, morphological and phonological – the core properties of human language appear to differ sharply from animal communication systems, and to be largely unique in the organic world...

The cognitive revolution of the 17th century also led to inquiry into the nature of concepts, with important contemporary implications, also insufficiently appreciated. Aristotle had recognized that the objects to which we refer in using language cannot be identified by their material substance. A house, he pointed out, is not merely a collection of bricks and wood, but is defined in part by its function and design: a place for people to live and store their possessions, and so on. In Aristotle’s terms, a house is a combination of matter and form. Notice that his account is metaphysical: he is defining what a house is, not the word or idea “house.” That approach led to hopeless conundrums. The ship of Theseus is a classic case that may be familiar from philosophy courses; Saul Kripke’s puzzle about belief is a modern variant. With the cognitive turn of the 17th century these questions were reframed in terms of operations of the mind: what does the word “house” mean, and how do we use it to refer. Pursuing that course we find that for natural language there is no word-object relation, where objects are mind-independent entities. That becomes very clear for Aristotle’s example, the word house, when we look into its meaning more closely. Its “form” in the Aristotelian sense is vastly more intricate than he assumed.

Furthermore, the conundrums based on the myth of a word object relation dissolve, when viewed from this perspective, which I believe has ample empirical support...In all such cases, there is no mind-independent object, which could in principle be identified by a physicist, related to the name. As we proceed, we find much more intricate properties, no matter how simple the terms of language we investigate. As Hume and others recognized, for natural language and thought there is no meaningful word-object relation because we do not think or talk about the world in terms of mind-independent objects; rather, we focus attention on intricate aspects of the world by resort to our cognoscitive powers. Accordingly, for natural language and thought there is no notion of reference in the sense of the modern philosophical tradition, developed in the work of Frege, Peirce, Russell, Tarski, Carnap, Quine, and others, or contemporary theorists of reference: “externalists,” in contemporary terminology. These technical concepts are fine for the purpose for which they were originally invented: formal systems where the symbols, objects, and relations are stipulated. Arguably they also provide a norm for science: its goal is to construct systems in which terms really do pick out an identifiable mind-independent element of the world, like “neutron,” or “noun phrase.” But human language and thought do not work that way.
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

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Fafner88 wrote:
But this is exactly what Wittgenstein was arguing against: there's no language without society, while Chomsky thinks there is. According to Chomsky, it's a mere coincidence that humans use language for communication, and therefore the social aspects of language are not what defines it as such.
Goodness gracious! Then can I take it that Chomsky believes in supernatural langue?

Does Chomsky claim that what Saussure called langue caused humans to be able to synthesise ideas as an evolutionary cause ? I.e. unlike (presumably) other animals whose symbols refer to actual events which all individuals of any specific species perceive exactly the same ? Or is Chomsky's claim just a description of humans to the effect that generative grammar evolved alongside other human attributes; and that therefore generative grammar and all other human attributes are not part of a causal chain but are in nomic connection?
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Re: Wittgenstein: In the beginning was the deed

Post by Logic_ill »

Chomsky has a very interesting view. Could there be an internal langue? If so, what does it imply? Does it mean that if we were left to our own devices (meaning no social input for spoken language or sign language) that we would develop a language all our own? I have frequently thought that if a child were not exposed to language, it may have disabilities or problems with cognition. It would be difficult to tell because we would not be able to communicate with him-her, but who knows? At other times I think the child or eventual adult would get along just fine...

It would be cruel to experiment on human subjects to find out, but I just think of these weird scenarios wondering what would happen.
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