Why there is something rather than nothing

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Obvious Leo
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Obvious Leo »

Belinda wrote: I inferred from Conway's Game of Life that order isthe system.
Yes exactly, and therein lies the super-rule you're looking for. As long as every effect is preceded by a cause then the system spontaneously becomes more ordered and complex, because the effect then becomes a cause itself which operates in a different causal domain. When we extend Conway's model into the Mandelbrot set this becomes very clear. It seems we're just getting bogged down in spurious semantic niceties here because I see no need to delineate a metaphysical distinction between causation and change. Furthermore I see no value in not considering the integrated dynamics of such a self-causal system as being an expression of the passage of time. In my view we're simply outsmarting ourselves when we think of time, change and causation as conceptually different constructs.

Regards Leo
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Itsjustaname
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Itsjustaname »

I like this quote from you a lot, it is common sense, but it also leads to not obvious conclusions.
Litewave wrote:Absolute nothingness is probably not possible because if there was absolutely nothing then there would be the fact (truth, axiom) that there is absolutely nothing, but this fact would be something, resulting in a contradiction. So it seems that there is necessarily something, but what is it?


Sorry to say but you lost me at the math language reference to empty sets and that jargon. I will tangentially add the set of all sets is about the only concept I know in set theory, but it is a really fun one!

I think this question: "Why is there something when there could be nothing?" sets us up for a discussion on the meaning of life, which already has its own thread. These two topics seem to flow directly into each other.

I think you steered the discussion into a more composition of reality direction (almost like the work of physicists in finding the smallest particles of matter) rather than a meaning of existence or life direction. So be it.
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Atreyu
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Atreyu »

Obvious Leo wrote:In my view we're simply outsmarting ourselves when we think of time, change and causation as conceptually different constructs.
Causation implies more than mere time and change.
Obvious Leo
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

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Atreyu wrote:Causation implies more than mere time and change.
Do you propose to elaborate on this comment or is to be taken as a divine fiat?
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Atreyu
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Atreyu »

Obvious Leo wrote:
Atreyu wrote:Causation implies more than mere time and change.
Do you propose to elaborate on this comment or is to be taken as a divine fiat?
Causation is the attempt to explain why a phenomenon happened. Time and change is merely how we cognize phenomena in the first place. Therefore, causation adds another "layer of cognition" to the mix. One can cognize time and change without cognizing any cause (without explaining why).
Obvious Leo
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Obvious Leo »

How does one cognise change without cognising a cause for it? I'm not suggesting that the cause necessarily be identifiable but I'm asking if you subscribe to the notion of an uncaused event.

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Belinda
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Belinda »

Obvious Leo wrote:How does one cognise change without cognising a cause for it? I'm not suggesting that the cause necessarily be identifiable but I'm asking if you subscribe to the notion of an uncaused event.

Regards Leo
I don't see how any cognition could occur without a narrative of either cause and effect (through time) , or a rationalist's narrative such as a creation myth or a science myth.

Cognition by definition happens because of the cerebral cortex, not the limbic system or the reptilian brain.
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Atreyu
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Atreyu »

Obvious Leo wrote:How does one cognise change without cognising a cause for it? I'm not suggesting that the cause necessarily be identifiable but I'm asking if you subscribe to the notion of an uncaused event.
Good point. I admit I cannot do that, and no reasonable person IMO could either. Nevertheless, it's still an extra layer of cognition. We can imagine uncaused events even though it's an unreasonable proposition. For example, I can imagine someone saying something like "hey, sh** happens". Not very reasonable, but nevertheless I'm sure it's the general position of many non-thinking persons in society, although you'd never know it until you asked them about it, since they never thought about it in the first place. One can cognize a "before, now, and after" without thinking about causation.

True?
Obvious Leo
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Obvious Leo »

I reckon **** happens is exactly how things happen in the natural world and to cognise causation correctly it's important to understand its unidirectional and chaotic nature. Causes must precede effects and not vice versa. For example, let's say you walk out into your garden and a branch falls off a tree and hits you on the head. This event occurred for a reason but the reason has nothing to do with your cracked skull. You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Many people instinctively conflate cause with purpose but this is to put the cart before the horse because purpose is solely a function of mind. I'm assuming you don't subscribe to the notion that tree branches are caused to behave in the way they do because they are directed by a purposeful mind. The multiple suite of causes responsible for the tree's behaviour is functionally irreducible after the event but to assume that they combined in such a way as to make the event occur could hardly be described as a leap of faith. Your skull was cracked because you were unlucky, not because you were the victim of a random trick of fate. If you'd walked the other way it might have clobbered the missus instead. **** happens.

Regards Leo
Platos stepchild
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Re: Why there is something rather than nothing

Post by Platos stepchild »

Litewave wrote:Absolute nothingness is probably not possible because if there was absolutely nothing then there would be the fact (truth, axiom) that there is absolutely nothing, but this fact would be something, resulting in a contradiction. So it seems that there is necessarily something, but what is it? It might be, for example, the simplest possible object, which we can imagine as an object that has nothing inside it (no parts). Or it might be some more complex object, which has other objects inside it, but this more complex object presupposes the existence of simpler objects (which are inside it) and ultimately also of the simplest object (the one that has nothing inside it). So the simplest object will exist in any case and therefore necessarily. This simplest object is in set theory called the empty set – an object that has nothing inside it. It is simultaneously the fact (that expresses) that there is nothing inside something but this does not lead to a contradiction because this fact is exactly this something (something with nothing inside it).

Now that we have found that the empty set necessarily exists we can ask if there is also something else. This something else would have to be outside the empty set (because inside the empty set is nothing). If we assumed that there is nothing else outside the empty set we would get a contradiction again, because there would be the fact that there is nothing else outside the empty set but this fact would be something else and it would also be outside the empty set (because inside the empty set is nothing). Therefore there is necessarily something else outside the empty set and this would have to be some more complex object. This more complex object might be the second simplest object, that is the set that only has the empty set inside, or an even more complex object but the second simplest object would exist in any case and therefore necessarily. So we already have two necessarily existing objects – the empty set and the set that only contains the empty set – and next we could ask if there is also something else than these two objects. In this way we would come to the conclusion that there must be an infinite number of sets whose basic building block is the empty set.

Set theory, built up from the empty set, is widely regarded as a foundation of mathematics, which means that these sets define all known mathematical truths. So it seems that not only does something necessarily exist but so do numbers, spaces and other mathematical objects. And I would also say that the set theoretical world/mathematics is the whole reality, because it includes all possible objects - from the simplest to the most complex.
This is the seminal post. There have been many others, all probing the question: "Why is there something rather than nothing". As for me, I've come to believe that if there really were nothing, then the "fact" of that nothingness would exist. I believe that facts don't exist in a vacuum, they must be archived. And, regardless of how such facts are archived, some sort of physically is necessarily implied.

So, I agree with the "seminal post" that "nothingness" is inherently contradictory. I also like the suggestion that set theory might possibly build-up reality, and actually be it's framework. But, set theory is a risky "framework" to trust as reality's guarantor. The most dire pitfall is the Mathematician Kurt Godel's proof that there must always be something about the mathematics-of-reality which can never be proved by the mathematics-of-reality.

So, if reality is mathematical, then there must be a meta-reality, such that certain unprovable aspects of reality can therefore be proved by a meta-logic. And, the same holds true of meta-reality, as well. It, too must have a meta-meta-reality, so as to guarantee it's own logic. It's pretty clear that we're dealing with an infinite hierarchy-of-realities, with us at the bottom.

Just imagine what this means. In order for our reality to exist, an infinity of realities are stacked overhead. You know, I really struggle to imagine this. I once saw a cartoon about Jack and the Beanstalk. The "beanstalk" wobbled thin, ever upward into the clouds. This is what I think of when I contemplate such an infinity-of-realities.

A "beanstalk" which never reaches the giant's lair, it just goes on and on, ever upward. And all of this so we might exist. I know that, just because I find an infinite-hierarchy-of-realities unconscionable, that's no reason for it not to exist. But, just consider that, because we exist other beings might therefore exist in a reality which owes it's existence to us. That's heavy, real heavy.

I don't trust infinities, being unimaginable, they ultimately contribute nothing to our understanding. To say that there is something, rather than nothing just because an infinity of 'somethings" make it so tells me nothing about the "somethings' all around me. And what about those "other beings"? We'd never be able to meet them. We're all contained within a mathematical framework, which separates us from all the other "frameworks".

The dizzying implication that our reality is mathematical, in nature is just too hard for me to accept. But, the suggestion that our reality is mathematical is too seductive for me to deny. Frankly, I'm stymied. I believe, balls-to-bones that reality must be mathematical, in nature. But, I just can't swallow the implications. This debate goes on inside my head, and I'm weary of it. What to do, what to do...
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