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Why does Existence Exist?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Machapungo
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Machapungo » September 10th, 2016, 9:18 pm

Post Number:#10 Unread post by Spiral Out » April 7th, 2016, 6:35 am
Existence is contained entirely within itself. The only reason existence can be known is because we ourselves (conscious awareness) exist.

As Greta pointed out, it is the "why is there something rather than nothing?" question rephrased. It is an invalid question. It is a false dichotomy. The suggestion is that something must exist absolutely or that there would be absolutely nothing. This is incorrect. Both the Universe and the Void are true, simultaneous, and necessary.

Both the Universe and the Void are at least two fundamental components of our conscious being.

Existence brings about the awareness of things and the lack of things. Our existence is the reason for an understanding the existence (Universe) and the Void.
-----------------
I think, Spiral Out and I essentially agree but perhaps not as he will judge as I continue. Of course, counter ideas are welcome. Existence is real because we are apart of it and we are conscious of it. If the void is "non existence", and it exists mentally, that is because it is necessary to mentally define existence as an opposite. Similarly. existence defines non existence. So, they mentally define each other. Beyond mental aspects, in the physical realm, if there can be something physical that is infinite and if the universe is physically infinite then there is no mental need for the notion of a physical void. If the physical universe is physically finite then there is a logical need for both the mental and physical void. But in that case. the physical void is necessarily mentally infinite as being everything outside the finite universe. I think, the idea if infinity is an invention of our feeble minds. I find it much more difficult to conjure infinite physical reality than infinite nothingness because nothingness by it's very definition is something that does not exist, except to help define something that does. So, I think that leaves me with a finite universe bounded by nothing. When I say nothing I don't mean space. I think space is a form of energy that is a part of our universe. On a quantum scale, physicists report seeing sub atomic particles popping into and out of apparent existence in space. This causes me to think that space is not nothing and therefore a part of our physical existent universe. The astrophysicists think that our universe is expanding and, of course, this means more space. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed but only change form then it seems that some form of energy is changing into the energy of space. So, I think, this leaves us with a bubble of finite existence that will forever change form regardless of how it will affect biological life. This universe is timeless, to my brain, and will continue changing form forever. Just because one of those forms may be one or many singularities that explode into apparent universes and go through cycles of entropy that produce thinking beings does not mean there is a physical thing that we call time. I think there is not. Eternity is not infinity and eternity is the physically real universe and it's constantly changing form. Regards.

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Rr6
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Slop-in-the-System

Post by Rr6 » September 11th, 2016, 8:13 am

Rr6 wrote: The sum-total of varied and many special-case occurrences of consciousness exist as, our finite, occupied space Universe.
Whereas I sometimes speak of some machinery allow for some slop in the system so as not to get bound/stuck from being too tight, I dont know if that scenario translates to the whole of Universe.
Maybe virtual particles are the slop in the system. Maybe gravity and dark energy are the slop-in-the-system.

https://books.google.com/books?id=Dn2EQ ... em&f=false

r6
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Fooloso4 » September 12th, 2016, 5:49 pm

Existence does not exist. Dogs, and cats, and people, and concepts exist (including the concept existence) but existence is nowhere to be found in an exhaustive enumeration of what exist.

The ability to ask a question does not mean the question must have an answer. What might stand as an answer to the question of why anything exists that does not beg the question, that is, that does not appeal to the existence of something? As has been pointed out the question itself necessitates existence. Is it possible that nothing exist? How are we to understand what possibility means absent existence?

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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien » September 15th, 2016, 6:02 am

Fooloso4 wrote:Existence does not exist. Dogs, and cats, and people, and concepts exist (including the concept existence) but existence is nowhere to be found in an exhaustive enumeration of what exist.

The ability to ask a question does not mean the question must have an answer. What might stand as an answer to the question of why anything exists that does not beg the question, that is, that does not appeal to the existence of something? As has been pointed out the question itself necessitates existence. Is it possible that nothing exist? How are we to understand what possibility means absent existence?
"Existence does not exist" :?: :mrgreen:

This is good to know - The problem has been solved - since nothing exists - problems do not exist - questions do not exist
- in fact nothing exists :!:

Of course that being the case - you also do not exist.

I always realized that 'nothing can not exist' - but now that you have informed us that existence too does not exist
- we can all forget about it - This forum, this post, me, you - we do not exist - No problems :arrow: :roll:

"but existence is nowhere to be found in an exhaustive enumeration of what exist".
And just how do you give an exhaustive enumeration of what exist{s} if nothing exists. :?:

Magic :?:

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Rr6
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Re: Slop-in-the-System

Post by Rr6 » September 15th, 2016, 10:43 am

Maybe virtual particles are the slop in the system. Maybe gravity and dark energy are the slop-in-the-system.
Words and language are tools that also act as slop-in-the-system i.e. the words are not representative of exactitude.

Macro-infinite, non-occupied space exists as a true nothing.

Metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept exists as a something, that, does not occupy space..

1c} Finite, occupied space Universe, exists as a something, that can only exist when complemented by 1b} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space and1a} metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept.

1, 2, 3, ABC, thats how easy, Universe can be...sung to M. Jackson song

These are the top of cosmic hierarchy of existence i.e. all that exists must fall into one or more of these three catagories.

Can we assign other attributes to these three, so as to assimilate our perception of them in other mathematical ways ex instead of 1-2-3 or ABC, can we assign each Cartesian line of dimension as X, Y and Z?

1a} metaphysical-1 concepts of Space---------------as X ______,

1b} metaphysical-2 actual space----------------------as Y______,

1c} finite, occupied space Universe actual space----as Z______.

If cartesian then these three are perpendicular to each other ergo kinda of like this Y. See following graphic of XYZ tetrahedron
XYZ tet.png
XYZ tet.png (31.21 KiB) Viewed 1227 times
So Y{1b } and Z{ 1c } correlate to line-as-dimension of space very well and we could symbolize those as a V and this would really be a right-angle not the 30-60 degree V I show here.

Now to add in X{ 1a} we could have it perpendicular or we could add it as third line, that gives enclosure shape to what previous was just a right-angle. So YZX of existence can be viewed as a 2D right-triangle.

/\

r6
Rr6 wrote:
Rr6 wrote: The sum-total of varied and many special-case occurrences of consciousness exist as, our finite, occupied space Universe.
Whereas I sometimes speak of some machinery allow for some slop in the system so as not to get bound/stuck from being too tight, I dont know if that scenario translates to the whole of Universe.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Dn2EQ ... em&f=false

r6
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Fooloso4 » September 15th, 2016, 10:51 am

UniversalAlien:
And just how do you give an exhaustive enumeration of what exist{s} if nothing exists.
I did not say that nothing exists. That was a conclusion you reached all on your own based on your own misguided logic. As I said dogs exist, cats exist, people exist, concepts exist, etc. How do you reach the conclusion based on this that nothing exists?

You have made the mistake that Aristotle calls the third man argument. Existence is not a thing that exists. If it were then there would have to be some third all inclusive category of existence that included both the things that exist and the existence of existence, ad infinitum.

Please show me the existence of existence rather than the existence of some particular thing.
Magic?
No just poor reasoning on your part.

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Rr6
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Re: Slop-in-the-System

Post by Rr6 » September 15th, 2016, 12:18 pm

Rr6--Maybe virtual particles are the slop in the system. Maybe gravity and dark energy are the slop-in-the-system.
Words and language are tools that also act as slop-in-the-system i.e. the words are not representative of exactitude.
We feed our waste food to the pigs and that is called pig slop. It may be their primary, good food for existence.
Now to add in X{ 1a} we could have it perpendicular or we could add it as third line, that gives enclosure shape to what previous was just a right-angle. So YZX of existence can be viewed as a 2D right-triangle. /\
Brian Greene{?} uses 2D slices of a loaf of bread show slices of time.

<<< past < out ( * | * ) in < future <<< where | is 2D Slice-of-Mind

<<< past < out ( * | * ) in < future <<<< where | is 2D Slice-of-Time aka Slice-of-Occupied Space

The truth exists, for those who seek it, those who don't and those who scoff at it. imho

r6

[quote="Rr6"
The sum-total of varied and many special-case occurrences of consciousness exist as, our finite, occupied space Universe.
Whereas I sometimes speak of some machinery allow for some slop in the system so as not to get bound/stuck from being too tight, I dont know if that scenario translates to the whole of Universe.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Dn2EQ ... em&f=false
[/quote]
[/quote]
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

Marsh8472
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Marsh8472 » September 15th, 2016, 4:20 pm

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The question presumes we exist right away. We appear to exist right at this very moment. I have no awareness of previous moments of my own existence except from memories which require moments to access that I do not presently exist in. I only know that I might exist right now at this very moment. But as I understand it, now is not a minute, second, millisecond, nanosecond, or any other interval of time. Now is the single moment that I exist in. I Require at least some interval of time to exist in, in order to verify I exist but since I only allegedly exist in one verified moment , that's not enough time to verify anything. I cannot verify that existence exists then.

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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien » September 15th, 2016, 5:01 pm

Marsh8472 wrote:Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The question presumes we exist right away. We appear to exist right at this very moment. I have no awareness of previous moments of my own existence except from memories which require moments to access that I do not presently exist in. I only know that I might exist right now at this very moment. But as I understand it, now is not a minute, second, millisecond, nanosecond, or any other interval of time. Now is the single moment that I exist in. I Require at least some interval of time to exist in, in order to verify I exist but since I only allegedly exist in one verified moment , that's not enough time to verify anything. I cannot verify that existence exists then.
I see what you are saying - But I look at this way:

Here is a post I started here last year with a link to the whole thread - It is relevant:

Only the Future Exists - An AlienView

Man lives in a perpetual state of delusion. He believes in a linear time line that follows a logical time flow from the past into the future - And makes the false assumption that he can comprehend this time flow in a place called 'now'. But what he fails to comprehend is that there is no 'now' - the moment you attempt to 'nail down' now you fail as now has already passed - there is no now! Now {pun intended} I want you to prove that there is an existent now and define exactly when it occurs - You can not as you would need to freeze time, and freeze the motion of the universe, and all existence for that matter, in order to have a state of now - Again there is no now in the reality of an existent universe! Relativity gets into the nature of 'space-time' and Quantum Mechanics gets into possibilities but neither theory considers that theories themselves are accepting a non-existent now state for a point of reference. Hypothetical aliens {real to some} are aware of this - One reason they appear and disappear so rapidly when observed and can move at incredibly fast speeds is that their physics dwarfs man's - They understand what time really is and Man does not - In a sense they are always coming from the future which they maintain mastery of - And poor Man is still stuck in the past.

THE FUTURE IS NOW !!!

See whole post here:
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... =2&t=13018

Marsh8472
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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Marsh8472 » September 15th, 2016, 5:37 pm

UniversalAlien wrote:
Marsh8472 wrote:Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The question presumes we exist right away. We appear to exist right at this very moment. I have no awareness of previous moments of my own existence except from memories which require moments to access that I do not presently exist in. I only know that I might exist right now at this very moment. But as I understand it, now is not a minute, second, millisecond, nanosecond, or any other interval of time. Now is the single moment that I exist in. I Require at least some interval of time to exist in, in order to verify I exist but since I only allegedly exist in one verified moment , that's not enough time to verify anything. I cannot verify that existence exists then.
I see what you are saying - But I look at this way:

Here is a post I started here last year with a link to the whole thread - It is relevant:

Only the Future Exists - An AlienView

Man lives in a perpetual state of delusion. He believes in a linear time line that follows a logical time flow from the past into the future - And makes the false assumption that he can comprehend this time flow in a place called 'now'. But what he fails to comprehend is that there is no 'now' - the moment you attempt to 'nail down' now you fail as now has already passed - there is no now! Now {pun intended} I want you to prove that there is an existent now and define exactly when it occurs - You can not as you would need to freeze time, and freeze the motion of the universe, and all existence for that matter, in order to have a state of now - Again there is no now in the reality of an existent universe! Relativity gets into the nature of 'space-time' and Quantum Mechanics gets into possibilities but neither theory considers that theories themselves are accepting a non-existent now state for a point of reference. Hypothetical aliens {real to some} are aware of this - One reason they appear and disappear so rapidly when observed and can move at incredibly fast speeds is that their physics dwarfs man's - They understand what time really is and Man does not - In a sense they are always coming from the future which they maintain mastery of - And poor Man is still stuck in the past.

THE FUTURE IS NOW !!!

See whole post here:
http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/ ... =2&t=13018
Right, if the non-existent is indistinguishable from a time period of length 0 and presentism is true then we may not be existing right now.

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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Present awareness » September 15th, 2016, 6:45 pm

Universal Alien said,
"I see what you are saying - But I look at this way:

Here is a post I started here last year with a link to the whole thread - It is relevant:

Only the Future Exists - An AlienView

Man lives in a perpetual state of delusion. He believes in a linear time line that follows a logical time flow from the past into the future - And makes the false assumption that he can comprehend this time flow in a place called 'now'. But what he fails to comprehend is that there is no 'now' - the moment you attempt to 'nail down' now you fail as now has already passed - there is no now! Now {pun intended} I want you to prove that there is an existent now and define exactly when it occurs - You can not as you would need to freeze time, and freeze the motion of the universe, and all existence for that matter, in order to have a state of now - Again there is no now in the reality of an existent universe! Relativity gets into the nature of 'space-time' and Quantum Mechanics gets into possibilities but neither theory considers that theories themselves are accepting a non-existent now state for a point of reference. Hypothetical aliens {real to some} are aware of this - One reason they appear and disappear so rapidly when observed and can move at incredibly fast speeds is that their physics dwarfs man's - They understand what time really is and Man does not - In a sense they are always coming from the future which they maintain mastery of - And poor Man is still stuck in the past.

THE FUTURE IS NOW !!!"

See whole post here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13018,

On the contrary, time is the illusion, the only thing that exists is "now". It does not come, it is here, it does not go, it is still here. Things change and move "within' the now, because it is "now" everywhere in the universe.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.

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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Marsh8472 » September 15th, 2016, 6:52 pm

Present awareness wrote: On the contrary, time is the illusion, the only thing that exists is "now". It does not come, it is here, it does not go, it is still here. Things change and move "within' the now, because it is "now" everywhere in the universe.
Right but if time is motion and motion is time that's just another way of stating the same thing isn't it? Or what if eternalism is true and there is no particular moment among all of time that is "now" but all moments exist simultaniously where each person feels like their now is the real and only currently existing now.

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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Present awareness » September 15th, 2016, 9:59 pm

I would not say that time is motion. Time is a human concept, which helps to make sense out of motion. Motion only happens now, because there is no "other" time.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.

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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by Fooloso4 » September 22nd, 2016, 6:07 pm

Universal Alien,

Should I take your silence as acknowledgement that I am right that existence doesn’t exist?

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Re: Why does Existence Exist?

Post by UniversalAlien » September 22nd, 2016, 7:21 pm

Present awareness wrote:I would not say that time is motion. Time is a human concept, which helps to make sense out of motion. Motion only happens now, because there is no "other" time.
Sure, if time is not 'real' then there is only now - Yet i can not imagine a state of 'only now'.

If, on the other hand, time exists there is never a 'now' - time would prevent an absolute state of now from existing.

Before the Big Bang there may have been a state of forever now BUT the fact that the Big Bang occurred shows that that
state of forever now was illusionary - there had to be a time when the Big Bang occurred and we began to measure time.

Therefor one might conclude that time is an eternal constant of all that exists. :idea:

And just how would you have motion without time? - Describe how you would measure timeless motion :?:

Motion requires time and space to occur in :idea:

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