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The Explanation of Life

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Belinda
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Belinda » August 8th, 2016, 7:29 am

Greta, thanks for that imaginary video which explains the energy situation for me, although knowing me I might forget it if I don't use the idea by for instance explaining it to someone else :(

Although your word pictures do fit with what Steve explained to me in answer to my question regarding how there was anything created so as to be subsequently entropied. He explained that the initial energy for creation came and still comes from the Big Bang.

It remains for me to ask if physicists have any calculations that corroborate what you have explained graphically.
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Greta
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Greta » August 8th, 2016, 8:01 pm

Belinda, I don't have the knowledge to answer your question but this post from a physics forum about mathematical proof of the second law reminded me of Leo's agreement with Poincare: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questi ... modynamics:
I don't think that a true proof exists; the controversies listed on the wikipedia page haven't been totally resolved. In particular, the Poincaré recurrence theorem says that, if you wait long enough, the second law of thermodynamics will eventually fail. However, as the article notes, this happens so infrequently that it's not worth worrying about. Still, things like that prevent a totally rigorous proof.
So, for all practical means and purposes, entropy increases but it may also decrease in the birth of universes.
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Belinda » August 9th, 2016, 3:38 am

Thanks Greta. I'm afraid the link that you recommended is too difficult for me. I need an easier, beginners' explanation of all that, something at the level that Dawkins does for biology, preferably using a graphic style like you do, and laymans' language like Leo did.

I have been told by a physics teacher that in order to understand physics the student has to understand mathematics, otherwise the student has to be content with description not explanation. Description would do for me, if such is possible.
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Greta
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Greta » August 9th, 2016, 9:16 am

Yes Belinda, the link is technical at times, but the quoted response above clarified the situation for me. In summary, proofs of ever-increasing entropy have been devised but are not universally (pardon pun) accepted.

The proofs are apparently broadly accepted within the lifespan of the universe. The difference in opinion is seemingly about what happens next - either endless increase of entropy to the heat death of the universe and eternal nothingness, or a collapse back to a big crunch / big bounce. Pity Steve isn't here ATM.

I'm not quite convinced by either speculated endgame, personally.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated—Gandhi.

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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Felix » August 9th, 2016, 5:06 pm

Belinda: How could it be that a universe that contained the more complex metabolic systems has the same amount of energy to one that was made of sterile rocks and dust?
Entropy is a dispersion of energy, not a loss of it, for in a closed system it cannot get lost (it's under house arrest), only become more or less coherent. This is why I said Chaos does not exist, it cannot exist in a closed system.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Greta » August 9th, 2016, 6:28 pm

Felix wrote:
Belinda: How could it be that a universe that contained the more complex metabolic systems has the same amount of energy to one that was made of sterile rocks and dust?
Entropy is a dispersion of energy, not a loss of it, for in a closed system it cannot get lost (it's under house arrest), only become more or less coherent. This is why I said Chaos does not exist, it cannot exist in a closed system.
Seems to be an awful lot of chaos in this closed universe, Felix.
Physicists would prefer to say that energy is conserved, not matter. In relativity theory we can convert one to another but energy is always conserved. That statement is not in conflict with the Second Law of Thermodynamics which states that in a closed system any process can either keep the entropy constant or increase the entropy of the system. The key is the form of the energy. In the universe today there are processes all around us that are converting one type of energy or another into heat energy. So the question is, what happens when all the usable energy is converted into heat?

That's a famous question that people thought a lot about in the nineteenth century. It goes under the name of the 'Heat Death of the Universe.' In short, once all of the energy in the universe is converted to heat then the universe will be in equilibrium -- everything will be of the same temperature and entropy will remain constant forever.
http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae261.cfm
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Nick_A » August 9th, 2016, 7:52 pm

Has anyone here contemplated this question of life from the Hermetic perspective and in particular “The Principle of Vibration"? It would make for an interesting discussion for those familiar with it.

3) The Principle of Vibration
"Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates."--The Kybalion.

"This Principle embodies the truth that "everything is in motion"; "everything vibrates"; "nothing is at rest"; facts which Modern Science endorses, and which each new scientific discovery tends to verify. And yet this Hermetic Principle was enunciated thousands of years ago, by the Masters of Ancient Egypt. This Principle explains that the differences between different manifestations of Matter, Energy, Mind, and even Spirit, result largely from varying rates of Vibration. From THE ALL, which is Pure Spirit, down to the grossest form of Matter, all is in vibration--the higher the vibration, the higher the position in the scale……………………………..."
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace

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Felix
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Felix » August 10th, 2016, 5:28 am

Seems to be an awful lot of chaos in this closed universe, Felix.
By "chaos" I meant complete disorder or utter incoherence. Even at the maximum level of entropy, there is coherence.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

Belinda
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Belinda » August 10th, 2016, 5:39 am

Nick_A wrote:Has anyone here contemplated this question of life from the Hermetic perspective and in particular “The Principle of Vibration"? It would make for an interesting discussion for those familiar with it.

3) The Principle of Vibration
"Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates."--The Kybalion.

"This Principle embodies the truth that "everything is in motion"; "everything vibrates"; "nothing is at rest"; facts which Modern Science endorses, and which each new scientific discovery tends to verify. And yet this Hermetic Principle was enunciated thousands of years ago, by the Masters of Ancient Egypt. This Principle explains that the differences between different manifestations of Matter, Energy, Mind, and even Spirit, result largely from varying rates of Vibration. From THE ALL, which is Pure Spirit, down to the grossest form of Matter, all is in vibration--the higher the vibration, the higher the position in the scale……………………………..."
I am 'sure' of it, Nick! Vibrate is Heraclitus's thought but "vibrate" is another metaphor besides that of Heraclitus for unremitting change.

Besides fitting physical things ranging from rocks to human bodies unremitting change fits with the human level of conscious awareness . If there were no change in the content of ideas there would be no ideas. Physiologically speaking, if the several brain-mind chemicals ceased their alternations in my brain-mind I would die and be dead.
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Rr6 » August 10th, 2016, 9:48 am

Felix wrote:Rainman, Yes, Rr6 speaks of concepts such as "unoccupied space," which has no properties. He doesn't seem to realize that he has crossed over from the province of science into that of faith.
Many humans have faith, based on experience. We have faith, that, the oncoming vehicle will not cross the center line just before we pass each other, 99% of the time.
RM---Quantum particles are not like the Cheshire Cat, they do not "pop in and out of existence," leaving only their smile behind. They are energetically transformed/transposed.
My recent explorations have led me to believe, that, the our observe particles -><- , pop into and out of ultra-micro, graviational and dark energy fields.

(-><-)(-><-)

This is not the whole, complete, comprehensive understanding, however, I believe it is the basics/fundamentals.

r6
Rr6 wrote: We deduce the existence of the above, 1b, macro-infinite non-occupied space, via our understanding of Universe being a finite integral/wholistic system.
....Finite = integral
.....Infinite = non-integral
We also deduce the existence of metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept via our conscious experiences i.e. we do not observe a concept running across the road in front of us, yet, it is obvious to me, and most common sense people, that, metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concept exists, as what it is.
Denying the existence of metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts is also denying the existence of " I " in "I"-verse. We observe an ongoing biological entity--- the verse ---and apply the conceptual identifier " I " to that verse.
We deduce time ( temporal } because are brains operate { temporal lobes } at speeds, less than those of speed-of-radiation. The verse in " I "-verse is what we observe via our senses.
Observed time is what deduce via our senses ( temporal lobes/brain ). NOt to mention time is inherent to any verse involving any occupied space involving fermions, bosons and any collection thereof.
..."I think that time is the biggest mystery of them all, and that it is somehow tied into and dependent upon our consciousness."....Kieth Mayes?
http://www.thekeyboard.org.uk/What%20is%20Time.htm
...." I cannot imagine anything 'real' that we could apply an infinite number to. The only thing I can imagine that could be really infinite is nothing, the 'nothing' I described earlier in Where did the universe come from? and we have no idea if that exists."....
"U"niverse > UniVerse > universe > I-verse < you-verse < we-verse < them-verse

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Felix
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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Felix » August 10th, 2016, 2:33 pm

My recent explorations have led me to believe, that, the our observe particles -><- , pop into and out of ultra-micro, gravitational and dark energy fields.
Even so, they haven't completely disintegrated and ceased to exist....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Mysterio448 » August 12th, 2016, 9:52 am

Felix wrote:
As I said, the transformation of energy.... The first law of thermodynamics, the law of conservation of energy, states that the energy of a closed system must remain constant — it can neither increase nor decrease without interference from outside. The universe is a closed system and therefore the total amount of energy in existence has always been the same. The forms that energy takes, however, change constantly.
Yes, in classical physics energy cannot be created or destroyed, as per the first law of thermodynamics. But quantum physics is a more recent science that paints a more detailed picture of the world. In the quantum realm, energy is not perfectly conserved as it is in the macroscopic realm.

I don't see a discrepancy, we cannot actually observe superposition so can only conjecture exactly what is happening. There are many competing interpretations of quantum mechanics, but as far as I know, none of them posit that quantum particles pop in and out of existence - although I suppose the many worlds theory may suggest that.
You should do some research on quantum foam or virtual particles.

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/blogs/physics/2012/10 ... riosities/

("Quantum Foam" on Wikipedia)

-- Updated August 12th, 2016, 10:04 am to add the following --

Also, the mass of protons and neutrons consists mostly of a field of virtual particles called gluons. These particles are also constantly popping in and out of existence. There are also quark-antiquark pairs that can pop up and momentarily turn the proton/neutron into a different particle altogether. The proton or neutron is basically a sum total of a chaotic jumble of quantum events going on at once.

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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Felix » August 12th, 2016, 3:41 pm

Mysterio448: Also, the mass of protons and neutrons consists mostly of a field of virtual particles called gluons. These particles are also constantly popping in and out of existence.
This is all scientific speculation, no one has a clue about the true nature of quantum reality. If you get your scientific education from blogs, you are sure to be misinformed. I have heard no respectable physicist claim that quantum energy is continually being created and destroyed.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Mysterio448 » August 12th, 2016, 4:26 pm

Felix wrote:
Mysterio448: Also, the mass of protons and neutrons consists mostly of a field of virtual particles called gluons. These particles are also constantly popping in and out of existence.
This is all scientific speculation, no one has a clue about the true nature of quantum reality. If you get your scientific education from blogs, you are sure to be misinformed. I have heard no respectable physicist claim that quantum energy is continually being created and destroyed.
I think you are just being close-minded here. All you have to do is google "quantum foam" or look it up on Wikipedia to find out that it is a respectable concept in science. I don't know who you would consider to be a "respectable physicist" but doing a little googling I happened to find an interview in which the well-known science commentator Neil deGrasse Tyson mentions the quantum foam: huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/04/neil-degr ... 90408.html

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Re: The Explanation of Life

Post by Felix » August 12th, 2016, 7:56 pm

Mysterio, As I said earlier, the universe is believed to be a closed system. Within this system, micro-energy fluctuations such as "quantum foam" can occur. These fluctuations do not entail the actual creation and destruction of energy, which would contradict the first and second laws of thermodynamics, but merely the displacement and/or transformation of energy. Therefore it would be correct to say that quantum energy particles appear and disappear like the light from a firefly but not that they exist and cease to exist. A more accurate description of this phenomena would require the use of mathematical equations....
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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