What makes up souls

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Belindi
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Belindi »

Consul wrote;
Belindi wrote:
Consul , if you substitute "process" (singular) for "processes" (plural) (as per Broad) don't you find that process becomes a synonym for nature itself?In that case you would find yourself free to argue for brain-mind identity as aspects of the same process, i.e. nature. Nature, I submit is the only substratum ; ontological substratum being defined as cause of itself. Cause of itself i.e. nature has only god as possible contender for the status of cause of itself. What is the point of adding an extra self-sustaining cause? Could you reconsider process ontology by substituting process for processes?

(Consul replied)
I'm not sure what you mean. One process can be many processes, in the sense that one macroprocess can be composed of or constituted by many microprocesses.

Self-causation is impossible: nothing can be causa sui. But maybe you mean self-existence. One traditional characteristic of substances is existential independence. Nature, the natural world as a whole may be one big substance, with all apparent other substances (and substrata) being ontologically reducible to complexes of attributes or modes of the One. (This is Spinoza's worldview.) Of course, for process ontologists, nature is not one big substance but one big process, with all apparent substances being ontologically reducible to complexes of processes.
Thanks Consul.

I do start from Spinoza . I concede that Spinoza's term regarding the ontological status of nature, causa suiis perhaps better " self existence", in order not to get side tracked into the matter of causal determinism. I refer to nature as what you call "macroprocess". What I would very much like to know is whether or not Spinoza's "nature as one big substance" can be interpreted to mean nature as "one big process". I would appreciate your comment, please.

I wonder very much if Spinoza's ontological system can be modified in such a way.
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Consul
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Consul »

Belindi wrote:I do start from Spinoza . I concede that Spinoza's term regarding the ontological status of nature, causa suiis perhaps better " self existence", in order not to get side tracked into the matter of causal determinism. I refer to nature as what you call "macroprocess". What I would very much like to know is whether or not Spinoza's "nature as one big substance" can be interpreted to mean nature as "one big process". I would appreciate your comment, please. I wonder very much if Spinoza's ontological system can be modified in such a way.
(Spinoza is a causal determinist.)

Spinoza's fundamental, irreducible ontological categories are <substance>, <attribute> (<essential property>), and <mode> (<accidental property>); so he's not an adherent of process ontology, according to which <process> (or <event>) is the one fundamental category, with <substance> being a non-fundamental, reducible category.
Nevertheless, Spinoza's one substance called God or Nature is active and creative. There are processes in God/Nature that consist in a modification of it, i.e. in a ceaseless change of its modes, i.e. its accidental properties, with all ordinary objects we perceive being complexes of such modes. Given the distinction between natura naturans and natura naturata, the former is the dynamic, processual aspect of Nature.

"There are, Spinoza insists, two sides of Nature. First, there is the active, productive aspect of the universe—God and his attributes, from which all else follows. This is what Spinoza, employing the same terms he used in the Short Treatise, calls Natura naturans, “naturing Nature”. Strictly speaking, this is identical with God. The other aspect of the universe is that which is produced and sustained by the active aspect, Natura naturata, “natured Nature”.
By Natura naturata I understand whatever follows from the necessity of God’s nature, or from any of God’s attributes, i.e., all the modes of God’s attributes insofar as they are considered as things that are in God, and can neither be nor be conceived without God. (Ip29s).
There is some debate in the literature about whether God is also to be identified with Natura naturata. The more likely reading is that he did, and that the infinite and finite modes are not just effects of God or Nature’s power but actually inhere in that infinite substance. Be that as it may, Spinoza’s fundamental insight in Book One is that Nature is an indivisible, uncaused, substantial whole—in fact, it is the only substantial whole. Outside of Nature, there is nothing, and everything that exists is a part of Nature and is brought into being by Nature with a deterministic necessity. This unified, unique, productive, necessary being just is what is meant by ‘God’. Because of the necessity inherent in Nature, there is no teleology in the universe. God or Nature does not act for any ends, and things do not exist for any set purposes. There are no “final causes” (to use the common Aristotelian phrase). God does not “do” things for the sake of anything else. The order of things just follows from God’s essences with an inviolable determinism. All talk of God’s purposes, intentions, goals, preferences or aims is just an anthropomorphizing fiction."


Baruch Spinoza: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/spinoza/
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Belindi
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Re: What makes up souls

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Given the distinction between natura naturans and natura naturata, the former is the dynamic, processual aspect of Nature.
Thanks Consul, really helpful.
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Rr6
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Rr6 »

Humans have the topology of a 3-4-5, or more, holed torus. Electro-magnetism is associated of Earth and other celestial objects are associated with a torus.

Our finite, occupied space Universe, exists eternally as dynamic set of three primary aspects, that, are associated with three aspects of a torus i.e. outer positive curvature, inside body, and inner negative curvature;

1} Space ( ) i.e. positive shaped gravitational space, as associated with a torus,

2} time ergo frequency of sine-wave topology ^v ^v or as \/\/\, as associated with a torus

3}Space )( i.e. negative shaped dark energy space, as associated with a torus.

Relatively simple set to grasp. imho a cosmically primary three-ness

The texticonic symbol for male is open set of 3 angles Y ergo *Y*

The texticonic symbol of female is closed set of 3 triangles /\ ergo /**\

If we place male texticon Y inside of female texticon \/ we get birds-eye-view of a tetrahedron \Y/, that, has three sets of diametrically opposing edges/chords/lines-of-relationship, that, each set of two diametrical opposing lines are at 90 degrees to each other.
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergeti ... 00103.html

The electric sine-wave and magnetic sine-wave of a photon--- electro-magnetic radiation ---are at 90 degrees to each other.

I think of male and female as any set of these two edges being at 90 degrees to each other ie I see man and woman at their optimum, operating dynamically at 90 degrees to each other. See link of such edges if spun on the three axi of three sets of opposing edges--- see A in following link

http://www.rwgrayprojects.com/synergeti ... f5511.html

r6
Rr6 wrote:
r6--See this link and just turn each great circle into a 3D torus. There is more too it than that, but I'm just touching on what I believe to be what is going on at ultra-micro scales of occupied space existence. Just think of each great circle as a 3D torus ( ( ) )
1} metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts ex concepts of Universe, Space, Dogs Cat, absolute truths and relative truths etc... Simple not complex to grasp.
---line-of-demarcation---------------------------------------
2} metaphysical-2, macro-infinite non-occupied space, that,embraces our finite, occupied space Universe. Simple, not complex to grasp.
3} metaphysical-3, gravity ( )
4} metaphysical-4 dark energy )(.
None have ever offered any rational, logical, common sense that would add to my given hierarchy, or invalidate my givens, as stated. Simple to grasp not complex. None ever will. In my humble opinion.
Ive laid out clearly, my belief in four kinds of metaphysical and all four are not only based on dictionary definitions are developed from process of rational, logical common sense pathways. I've always been available to assist any difficulty grasping any of my relatively simple concepts, as stated.
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Lark_Truth
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Re: What makes up souls

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Here is something that I recently just heard: A soul is a combination of a spirit and a body.

Maybe the topic of this thread should be what makes up spirits. Should it?
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Belindi
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Belindi »

Lark_Truth wrote:Here is something that I recently just heard: A soul is a combination of a spirit and a body.

Maybe the topic of this thread should be what makes up spirits. Should it?

Do you consider spirits and souls to be of the same substance as bodies and minds?

Or do you consider spirits and souls to be ghostly, supernatural, superior, and distinctly different substances from bodies and minds?

Do you consider that God likes spirits and souls a lot more than He likes bodies and minds?
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Felix
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Re: What makes up souls

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Lark_Truth, You have posed a question about something you have not defined: "What are souls made out of?"

You'll first need to define "soul." What are its properties?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
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Rr6
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Re: What makes up souls

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Lark_Truth wrote:Here is something that I recently just heard: A soul is a combination of a spirit and a body.
Maybe the topic of this thread should be what makes up spirits. Should it?
Ive laid out clearly the four primary kinds of spirit in my cosmic hierarchy. None have ever offered any rational, logical common sense that adds too or invalidates my four givens, as stated

1a} Spirit-1{ metaphysical-1 } mind/intellect/concept and spirit-of-intent,

1c2} spirit-2{ physical/energy } i.e. fermions, bosons and any aggregate collection thereof as time/frequency/sine-wave ^v^v \/\\/\/\/,

1c3} spirit-3{ metaphysical-3 } gravity,

1c4} spirit-4{ metaphyscial-4 } dark energy.

Simple, not complex. imho

r6
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Re: What makes up souls

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Felix wrote:Lark_Truth, You have posed a question about something you have not defined: "What are souls made out of?"

You'll first need to define "soul." What are its properties?
I am sorry Felix, but I don't have the answer to that. I don't know what a soul or spirit is made out of which is why I created this thread in the first place.
If I could define the properties of a soul, I would have to say that it is the combination of a body and a spirit. If what you were looking for is the properties of a spirit, my theory on that would be that it is able to possess a body, is unseen by most mortal eyes (though perhaps there is a vale of some sort that hides spirits from us), only certain psychics and spiritualists are able to sense them, and that they are probably made out of something that we don't know quite what is, and thus there is still a ton more that we do not know about spirits or souls.
If you want a more technical answer, ask Rr6, he seems to be on the right track.
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Belindi
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Belindi »

Lark_Truth you seem to me to have an awful lot of work to do and I applaud your application to the task in hand. I hope you don't injure yourself beating your wings against the bars of the cage.
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Lark_Truth »

I sure hope I don't either, Belind, else I will find myself on a metaphorical roasting spit with an apple in my teeth and being sprinkled with lemon and sage.
But does anyone else besides Rr6 have a good idea on what souls/spirits are made out of?

If you're looking for the physical properties of a soul/spirit to base a response off of:
- We can't see them
- They have to be some form of matter
- They can inhabit a body
- They separate from a body upon death
I've suggested dark matter, Rr6 seems to be going along those lines as well. Any one else have some suggestions and evidence, or else support what others are saying?
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Fooloso4
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Fooloso4 »

Lark_Truth:
I've suggested dark matter …
What is dark matter? Saying the soul is made of dark matter is like saying it is made of something we know nothing about.

This is the same kind of mystification of science that we find with misinformed speculation about quantum mechanics.
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Felix
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Felix »

Lark_Truth, I wasn't asking you to provide a chemical assay of a soul but without at least a general definition of it's nature, this thread is an exercise in futility. What did you have in mind? An occult organ of knowledge or.... ??

-- Updated Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:36 pm to add the following --

"We can't see souls"

Some people claim to have seen them (spirits)

"They have to be some form of matter"

Why?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin
Belindi
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Re: What makes up souls

Post by Belindi »

Lark_Truth wrote:
does anyone else besides Rr6 have a good idea on what souls/spirits are made out of?
Your idea is the best so far, that souls are composed of bodies and spirits. I'd not say 'spirits' as that has connotations of ghosties and I'd rather say 'minds' instead of 'spirits'. In other words ,and I don't know if you intended what I am going to suggest, 'souls' is the |Anglo Saxon word for the Latin 'individuals'.

'Souls' came to be religious terminology because 'souls' is the archaic word for individuals and as we know religious people usually regard bodies as separable from minds.
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Re: What makes up souls

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Lark_Truth wrote: I've suggested dark matter, Rr6 seems to be going along those lines as well. Any one else have some suggestions and evidence, or else support what others are saying?
To be clear again, I rarely reference 'dark matter'. If ever actually observed then it falls under 1c2} observed physical/energy Universe i.e fermions bosons and any aggregate thereof. Simple not complex. imho

Whereas I see gravity and dark energy integral to ever particle, I have no reason to believe the same for 'dark matter'.

Here is some of the latest regarding 'dark matter'.

https://phys.org/news/2012-02-dark-inte ... space.html

..."and recent observational data of gravitational lensing to reveal how dark matter is distributed around galaxies.

....They showed that galaxies have extended outskirts of dark matter, well beyond the region where stars exist. The dark matter distribution is well organized but extended to intergalactic space, whereas luminous components such as stars are bounded within a finite region.

......More interestingly, the estimated total amount of dark matter in the outskirts of the galaxies explains the gap between the global cosmic mass density and that derived from galaxy number counting weighted by their masses. A long standing mystery on where the missing dark matter is now solved by the research. There is no empty space in the universe. The intergalactic space is filled with dark matter.".....

Biological/soul ergo synonyms. Simple not complex other than biological's/souls are in of their selves very complex

r6
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