Ontological Emergence

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
PoeticUniverse
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Re: Ontological Emergence

Post by PoeticUniverse »

NickGaspar wrote: July 15th, 2021, 1:36 pm Strong & Weak Emergence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66p9qlpnzzY
examples of Strong emergence phenomena can be found at 6:00 time mark.
The liquidity of water as strong emergence is not a good example because possibly the tiny hydrogen atoms in relative comparison to the large oxygen atoms can easliy roll around them, plus there are electrons freely moving about.
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: Ontological Emergence

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

PoeticUniverse wrote: July 30th, 2021, 12:52 am
NickGaspar wrote: July 15th, 2021, 1:36 pm Strong & Weak Emergence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66p9qlpnzzY
examples of Strong emergence phenomena can be found at 6:00 time mark.
The liquidity of water as strong emergence is not a good example because possibly the tiny hydrogen atoms in relative comparison to the large oxygen atoms can easliy roll around them, plus there are electrons freely moving about.
Hey PU, good to see you in the afterlife! I see there are a lot of happy people here :shock:

Quick question. How do you post a video? I searched the site and although there was instruction... , I must be technically challenged. I tried copying the URL code, but when I hit 'preview' it defaults back to the link (your kind of link) and not the actual picture of the video itself... .
???
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
PoeticUniverse
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Joined: April 4th, 2015, 7:25 pm

Re: Ontological Emergence

Post by PoeticUniverse »

3017Metaphysician wrote: July 30th, 2021, 3:12 pm
All there seems to be is a link button that looks like a chain with two links in it.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Ontological Emergence

Post by Sy Borg »

Strong emergence may simply be the black boxing of mysteries yet to be unravelled. Just because an entity cannot be theoretically derived from its component parts does not mean that such theories are impossible.

The theories that bring apparently strong emergent properties might be more complex than is currently possible to calculate, or the current models may have issues.
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Sy Borg
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Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Ontological Emergence

Post by Sy Borg »

3017Metaphysician wrote: July 30th, 2021, 3:12 pmQuick question. How do you post a video? I searched the site and although there was instruction... , I must be technically challenged. I tried copying the URL code, but when I hit 'preview' it defaults back to the link (your kind of link) and not the actual picture of the video itself... .???
[yid=the code after the equals sign in a YouTube URL][/yid]


If it's a very long URL, you can cut off all the code that appears after the ampersand (&), which only contains information about the referring URL.


eg. [yid =
GcJxRqTs5nk]
[/yid]
Atla
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Re: Ontological Emergence

Post by Atla »

PoeticUniverse wrote: July 30th, 2021, 12:52 am The liquidity of water as strong emergence is not a good example because possibly the tiny hydrogen atoms in relative comparison to the large oxygen atoms can easliy roll around them, plus there are electrons freely moving about.
Good point.

The other main example in the video was quantum entanglement, which some consider to be the best example of strong emergence. I'll have to strongly disagree with this, not only is that just speculation, a certain kind of interpretation of QM, but imo it's unlikely to be correct.

When we create entangled particle pairs, it's said that the created entangled connection between them is strongly emergent. This picture requires a universe in which some things are entangled and some things aren't, it's not a uniform universe.

We create an entangled pair, Alice takes one particle to the other end of the universe, Bob stays with the other particle on Earth, then they look at them, one of them will measure the particle to be this way, the other one to be that way. But just think about it, doesn't maybe everything else in the universe also have to be consistent with Alice necessarily doing this and Bob necessarily doing that?

So the alternative speculation, kind of interpretation is that the entire universe is entangled (which might be why it had to go through a Big Bang), and humans don't "create" entangled pairs, instead they can sometimes track a little bit of the inherent entanglement of the universe. In which case there is no strong emergence to speak of.

Which speculation is more likely? Some would say that one uniform feaute of the universe is more likely, than two different features mixed together.
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