How can you know that you can't know?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Eaglerising
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Eaglerising »

Have you ever considered the probability that problems and solutions are opposite sides of the same coin? Here is another challenging question, are problems created by knowledge? Could the the solution to every problem be the negation of knowledge?

Before I go any further, I am going to define a "problem" as an irritant or anything undesirable. And, a "solution" is the elimination of the irritant or undesirable.
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Toledoroy
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Toledoroy »

Eaglerising wrote:Have you ever considered the probability that problems and solutions are opposite sides of the same coin? Here is another challenging question, are problems created by knowledge? Could the the solution to every problem be the negation of knowledge?

Before I go any further, I am going to define a "problem" as an irritant or anything undesirable. And, a "solution" is the elimination of the irritant or undesirable.
I have definitely considered it, as I also considered that inventions and needs are as well two sides of the same thing.
However, I don't quite share your views regarding the definition of problems... I guess that I just believe that existing is about having more of those coins, not less.
Eaglerising
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Eaglerising »

Toledoroy –
I have definitely considered it, as I also considered that inventions and needs are as well two sides of the same thing.
Isn't need the motivation for the creation of invention? Likewise, isn't motivation stimulated or caused by something? Could the pursuit of something desirable or the elimination of something undesirable be the motivation for the creation of invention?
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Toledoroy
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Toledoroy »

Eaglerising wrote: Isn't need the motivation for the creation of invention? Likewise, isn't motivation stimulated or caused by something? Could the pursuit of something desirable or the elimination of something undesirable be the motivation for the creation of invention?
But could we need so an iPhone when living in savannas of Africa?
Our need couldn't have existed before the invention, so what does that tell us?
Can we really need things without them existing? and could things come to existence when we don't need them?
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Burning ghost
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Burning ghost »

The issue is the question.

If I ask you to imagine a rabbit flying you can do this. If I ask you to imagine a rabbit moving both forward and backwards at the same time without growing, stretching or being split apart in any way, we cannot imagine this. We can imagine the space around the rabbit being manipulated in some way so as to make it appear to the observer that the rabbit is being stretched/distorted but this would contradict what I said previously about imagining this without "growing" (but also we could say that it is possible because it only appears to us to be stretching when it is not!).

Then we can perhaps start to say "if I cannot imagine it then I cannot know it". Merely being able to verbally say "think of a chair with no sides" does not make it imaginable. Also pay attention to the sense in which I am using "imagine". I am not merely merely saying "visualize". As an example I can imagine that there are millions of people on Earth, yet I cannot visualize this. Not being able to visualize something does not mean it is not "knowable", because I know there are more than a million people in the city I am in right now let alone on Earth!

So the question "How can I know what I cannot know?" is a non-question. It has the appearance of making sense because it is set out in an ordered grammatical way that fits our understanding of language structure. Essentially though it is as meaningful as asking "What time is it when the Sun thinks about flying rabbit when it is in a yellow mood?". What happens is we 'see' the words (or grasp them in some way sighted, hearing, blind, etc.,.) and apply our basic grammatical understanding to them to glean some sense from them. We do not listen to someone speak expecting for them to make absolutely no sense and to merely expel a string of random words. We always try to understand the words and the context we are 'seeing' them in. With your OP title you've fashioned a question that looks like it make perfect sense because it is disguised in a comprehensible grammatical structure. Apart from this the question does not make any sense.

I think it worth saying that we can make sense from nonsense. Such happening takes place in artistic forms. Although I am being very loose with what I mean by "sense" and "nonsense". I painting of a few seemingly random marks on a canvas may, or may not, have an emotional effect on someone. When there is a 'feeling' we know the 'feeling'. What can be framed in an objective light can be held up to knowledge and judged accordingly. Certain aspects of art can be held up to the light of objective understanding, but we are limited in what we understand here because such things are very difficult to partially isolate in an objective frame. We can know what 1+1=, but we cannot objectify the "1" in complete isolation. We lay an objective claim upon "1" because we can all apply it and understand its universal meaning.

If the question is correct then we can know. If the question is wrong we cannot know. In both cases we are primed to attempt to understand whatever we experience, and do as best we can.

Another big problem is to confuse analogy with understanding. Saying a cloud acts like a animal does not mean it is mimicking an animal or that animals mimic clouds. It is merely a useful way of expressing how a cloud moves, or grows, or whatever else the person using the analogy wishes to express. It is a means of bringing an abstract perception of something to someone else's attention as an exercise of perceptions itself. Sometimes this may lead to progression of a shift in paradigms.
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Eaglerising
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Eaglerising »

Burning Ghost –
The issue is the question.
I agree. I am having issues with it too because I never asked: How Can You Know That You Can’t Know? Someone is messing with my posts. The question makes no sense to me. What I have said is this: We don’t know and understand what we think and believe we know and understand. In other words, we aren’t consciously aware of how accurate or inaccurate what we know, think, and believe.

Buring Ghost –
I think it worth saying that we can make sense from nonsense.
Thought does it all the time by creating dots that don't exist and connecting. Dreaming is another example. Thought being the resident expert, doesn't like to admit it doesn't know something, so it creates and illusion and perceives it as being real.
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Burning ghost
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Burning ghost »

Eag -

You didn't ask the question the OP did. I was not replying to any of your posts.
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Eaglerising
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Eaglerising »

Ok, sorry.
Moreno
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Re: How can you know that you can't know?

Post by Moreno »

Toledoroy wrote: May 3rd, 2017, 9:11 am
Moreno wrote:Can you give specific examples of issues/problems that come up, that fit the categories you are talking about and which you have decided, Oh, I would be better off not wasting my time investigating that?
Well, if you believe that you can know everything then it's better that you don't waste our time.
I asked a question for clarification. This seems like a rude and confused response on your part. How did I assert that I can know everything?
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