Well, it depends on the definition of "consciousness". This word is ambiguous, but one central meaning is in fact "subjective experience" (aka "phenomenal consciousness"), and that's why I reject the general semantic equation of "consciousness" with "(introspective/reflective) awareness of one's mental/experiential states" or "perception/cognition of one's mind/experience".RJG wrote:Why not just keep it simple and just say --Consul wrote:First-order consciousness (= experience) is one thing, and second-order consciousness (= introspective/reflective knowledge or awareness) of first-order consciousness is another; and the former doesn't entail the latter.
Experiences (bodily reactions) are one thing, and Consciousness (the “knowing” of said experience) is another.
You're right insofar as simply undergoing an experience is not the same as being (cognitively: introspectively or reflectively) conscious/aware of one's experience or that one is undergoing it. Experience qua first-order consciousness doesn't require and depend on second-order consciousness (awareness) of first-order consciousness.RJG wrote:Not quite. These are two different events that occur at two different times.Consul wrote:"One simple way to draw a connection between consciousness and experience is this: a creature is conscious at time t if and only if it is undergoing one or more experiences at t.
Again, “experience” is one thing and the “consciousness” (of this experience) is another, -- one naturally 'follows’ the other (...is AFTER the other). It is one thing to 'experience' something, and then it is quite another to 'know' you experience this something.
That which happens in reality (in real-time), and that which happens in the conscious mind of the observer (in conscious-time) are two different events, happening at two different times.
The time lag between these two associated events is called our CTD (Conscious Time Delay).
As for the temporal relationship between an experience and (cognitive) awareness/consciousness of it, there is a difference between saying that they do not begin at the same time, with the latter beginning after the former, and saying that they do not temporally overlap at all, in the sense that awareness of experience is always awareness of (completely) past experience and never awareness of present or current experience—in which case introspection would always be retrospection. But we can become (introspectively) aware of experiences we (now) have.
No, experiences are experiential states (or events), and as such they are a kind of mental states called conscious mental states (or simply conscious states) by Tye (and many others). He uses "conscious (mental) state" synonymously with "experiential state", such that being in a conscious state doesn't necessarily mean being conscious or aware of (being in) that state (in the higher-order transitive sense of "conscious").RJG wrote:To clarify (and simplify):Consul wrote:Further and relatedly, a mental state is conscious if and only if it is an experience. Assuming that an experience is a mental state such that there is something it is like to undergo it, it follows that a mental state is conscious if and only if there is something it is like for the subject of the state to undergo it.
Experiences are NOT “mental states”, ...experiences are “bodily reactions”.
The mental 'recognitions’ of these bodily reactions are our (conscious) “mental states”.
By the way, quite a few philosophers (including Descartes) think that conscious/experiential states are the only kind of (genuinely and distinctively) mental states, such that mind = consciousness/experience.
I'm not sure I can follow you here, but I really don't think that we cannot become conscious/aware of our experiences themselves but only of mental representations of them. Introspective awareness (as inner perception, not as thought) is direct, i.e. representationally unmediated, awareness of experiences.RJG wrote:ALL experiences are unconscious.Consul wrote:One objection "is that the Simple view is inconsistent. Some experiences are unconscious.
We are only conscious of the resulting ‘recognition’ (mental interpretation/representation) of-the-experience.
‘Recognition’ is our means (brain process) of converting the 'unconscious’-to-the-’conscious’.
If by "conscious doing" you mean intentional action, then we are capable of that.RJG wrote:You seem to imply that we humans can consciously “do” things, like drive cars and move our bodies about, ...we don’t, we can't.Consul wrote:Take, for example, the visual experiences of the distracted driver as she drives her car down the road. She is concentrating hard on other matters (the phone call she is answering about the overdue rent, the coffee in her right hand, etc.), so her visual experiences are unconscious. But her experiences exist alright. How else does she keep the car on the road? An unconscious experience is impossible, however, on the Simple View, for such an experience is an experience that is not an experience!
We can't consciously ‘do’ anything! We can’t do the impossible.
1- Do we consciously move our body about? Or…
2- Are we just conscious of our body moving about?
2 is the only possible answer.
Consciously ‘doing’ anything is logically impossible, for EVERYTHING that we are conscious of, has already happened! ...via CTD.
As far as the sensory perception of external and more or less distant objects or events is concerned, it takes some time for light or sound waves to travel from them to our eyes or ears, and further for neural signals to travel from the eyes or ears to the brain, so that we never perceive them exactly as they are now but only as they were some time ago.
But introspection, the inner perception of (the content of) one's mind/consciousness is unlike outer (sensory) perception, because there is no spatial distance between the mental act/event of introspecting and the introspected mental event and there are no physical intermediaries involved such as light or sound waves. Inner perception is immediate perception, so it's not impossible for subjects to become aware of their experiences as they are now.
-- Updated October 7th, 2017, 6:54 am to add the following --
The immune system is a mere physiological stimulus-response system, whose workings have nothing to do with consciousness.Empiricist-Bruno wrote:More questions need to be addressed about consciousness to have an incisive definition for it: If I get a cut, does my immune system become conscious of it or not? If my immune system is unconscious of it, how can it react against the infection? Is my immune system simply reacting to an infection in the sense that what sets it in motion and controls it is the adverse agent? So, the knife is conscious of the immune system?
First of all, as I already mentioned in a previous post, there is a relevant distinction between transitive and intransitive consciousness:Empiricist-Bruno wrote:Experiencing something and being conscious of something are expressions of similar meaning. Essentially, experiencing means to go through whatever. But you can be conscious of something without experiencing it. I am conscious of the presence of the spacecraft Voyager but I'm not experiencing that presence. A bullet going through a wall is experiencing the wall. Is the bullet conscious of the wall as well when it experiences it? Is the conscience of the bullet being affected by the wall? The bullet modifies it's speed and shape as it goes through the wall. Isn't this evidence of some degree of consciousness within the bullet? Why not? The experiencing of the wall has nothing to do with how the bullet is affected by the wall. The experiencing of the wall simply informs us of a passage of the bullet through a wall.
"An intuitive way to talk about consciousness is to say that a mental state is conscious when we are conscious of it. But this intuitive formulation utilizes two different uses of the word 'conscious.' The first use is called intransitive, because this form of consciousness has no object. State consciousness is an intransitive form of consciousness. The second use is called transitive, because this form of consciousness takes an object; transitive consciousness is consciousness of something. Introspective consciousness is a transitive form of consciousness, because it takes mental states as objects."
(IEP entry on Higher-Order Theories of Consciousness)
It should be understood that the relevant concept of experience is the psychological one, viz. the concept of mental experience or subjective experience (which is used synonymously with the concept of phenomenal consciousness). Bullets going through walls are thereby physically affected somehow, but they subjectively experience (or perceive) nothing, since bullets aren't subjects of (phenomenal) consciousness.
* Experiencing something is the same as being intransitively conscious.
* Perceiving something is the same as being transitively conscious of something.
(However, perceiving is not the only way of being conscious of something: "When one thinks of a thing as being present to one, that does suffice for one to be conscious of that thing, even when one doesn't sense or perceive that thing." [Source])
* Experiencing is not the same as perceiving. To hallucinate is to have a sensory experience, but it is not to perceive anything (through the experience).
* Strictly speaking, subjects never experience anything but their experiences, which is certainly not to say that they never perceive anything but their experiences. We (sensorily) perceive things by experiencing appearances of them.