The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

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Tamminen
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen » May 7th, 2019, 3:33 pm

Atla wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 1:54 pm
An alternative assumption is that there never was a start because time goes in circle, it "flows in one direction" and eventually returns into itself.
I must confess that I had this same idea once. It is nice and symmetric. No beginning, no end. The eternal return. But there are at least two difficulties in it. First: in terms of time itself it has the problem of infinite past that I tried to describe above. The loop structure does not help here, although the content of the loop does not change. Second: the finite content of the loop suggests some kind of a finite and absolute "solution" to the problems of our existence, which would be fine of course but as a pessimist I cannot believe in such an enlightenment. So I had to create a new theory.

Atla
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla » May 7th, 2019, 3:41 pm

Tamminen wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 3:33 pm
Atla wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 1:54 pm
An alternative assumption is that there never was a start because time goes in circle, it "flows in one direction" and eventually returns into itself.
I must confess that I had this same idea once. It is nice and symmetric. No beginning, no end. The eternal return. But there are at least two difficulties in it. First: in terms of time itself it has the problem of infinite past that I tried to describe above. The loop structure does not help here, although the content of the loop does not change. Second: the finite content of the loop suggests some kind of a finite and absolute "solution" to the problems of our existence, which would be fine of course but as a pessimist I cannot believe in such an enlightenment. So I had to create a new theory.
No, again: I'm NOT talking about the eternal return. I'm talking only about ONE loop or cycle, not infinitely many loops or cycles, as you said the eternal return by and large still has the same infinite linear one-drectional time problem.

Tamminen
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen » May 7th, 2019, 3:42 pm

Atla wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 3:28 pm
If by subjective time we really only mean the illusion of the passage of time, then nothing follows from it since it's just an illusion. It has no "actual" internal structure or logic.
I just tried to say that subjective time is not a sensation but the structure where sensations are experienced.

Atla
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla » May 7th, 2019, 3:46 pm

Tamminen wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 3:42 pm
Atla wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 3:28 pm
If by subjective time we really only mean the illusion of the passage of time, then nothing follows from it since it's just an illusion. It has no "actual" internal structure or logic.
I just tried to say that subjective time is not a sensation but the structure where sensations are experienced.
That's just a psychological structure, you can even get rid of it in unusual states of mind.

Tamminen
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen » May 7th, 2019, 3:51 pm

Atla wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 3:41 pm
No, again: I'm NOT talking about the eternal return. I'm talking only about ONE loop or cycle, not infinitely many loops or cycles, as you said the eternal return by and large still has the same infinite linear one-drectional time problem.
OK, but in that case I just cannot get the point. Maybe some day.
That's just a psychological structure, you can even get rid of it in unusual states of mind.
No, it is an ontological structure.

Atla
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla » May 7th, 2019, 4:11 pm

Tamminen wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 3:51 pm
No, it is an ontological structure.
Of course it's not an ontological structure. The only "actual" time is the eternal now.

We humans are simply bound to the illusion of the passage of time, since if we wouldn't experience life in the direction of increasing entropy, we couldn't be human. That's a tautology.

And it was an evolutionary advantage to have this illusion deeply psychologically ingrained. But you can get rid of it, for example I lost it like 10 years ago. Of course when I look around I still always see the world ageing, and myself ageing, but I also always see that this is just a snapshot in the eternal now.

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Felix
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Felix » May 7th, 2019, 5:58 pm

Atla: "The circle has a finite size, but where is the beginning on it?"

It's beginning is when it first came into existence, it's size or structure is irrelevant.

And previously you said: "I'm talking about a finite chain of events though (and the chain is circular)."

Every chain of events has a beginning, the first event or link in the chain.

Atla: "If by subjective time we really only mean the illusion of the passage of time, then nothing follows from it since it's just an illusion."

If the passage of time and material change are illusions, then subjectiveness itself is a delusion predicated on illusion. But that does not seem to be what you are suggesting (?)

Atla: "And it was an evolutionary advantage to have this illusion deeply psychologically ingrained."

Without time and change, there is no evolution.
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

Tamminen
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen » May 8th, 2019, 2:34 am

Felix wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 5:58 pm
Without time and change, there is no evolution.
Correct. And even ignoring time and living in the eternal present has a temporal basis. Therefore subjective time is ontologically fundamental. And this whole topic we are discussing, generic subjective continuity, is all about subjective time. Time is the key structure of being itself, as Heidegger so clearly saw.

I accept the idea of the eternal now, but I understand that its concrete realization is based on temporality.

Atla
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla » May 8th, 2019, 9:30 am

Felix wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 5:58 pm
Atla: "The circle has a finite size, but where is the beginning on it?"

It's beginning is when it first came into existence, it's size or structure is irrelevant.

And previously you said: "I'm talking about a finite chain of events though (and the chain is circular)."

Every chain of events has a beginning, the first event or link in the chain.
There is no coming into existence, or first event in the chain, when time is a loop. That's the point.
If the passage of time and material change are illusions, then subjectiveness itself is a delusion predicated on illusion. But that does not seem to be what you are suggesting (?)
Let 2019 here on Earth be the starting point.
I'm saying that if we could view the universe from the outside and follow "subjective time" long enough into what we consider the future of the starting point, a surprising thing could happen: we could end up in what we consider the past of the starting point.
Without time and change, there is no evolution.
There is a very deep sensation of the flow, the passage of time that's actually psychological, and one can more or less get rid of it, that's what I meant. But of course no matter what we do we are still bound to continue ageing, on some level time for us will apparently keep flowing anyway.

But if this whole flow is actually a loop then nothing actually changes, it's a loop sitting in the middle of timeless eternity (which is the only perfectly logical picture anyway).

Tamminen
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen » May 8th, 2019, 11:45 am

Atla wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 9:30 am
Let 2019 here on Earth be the starting point.
I'm saying that if we could view the universe from the outside and follow "subjective time" long enough into what we consider the future of the starting point, a surprising thing could happen: we could end up in what we consider the past of the starting point.
Let us say I start from A. Is this the absolute starting point or did I come to A from somewhere? From where? Now if I make the journey and come to A so that the loop is filled, is this the absolute end? If not, where do I go from there? If I start the same journey, it takes place later in my subjective time than the first one even if it is the same journey if we look at the experiences and all external criteria. To say that coming to A is coming to my past is like saying that there are round squares. And there is no absolute point of view to the world.

Atla
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla » May 8th, 2019, 1:10 pm

Tamminen wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 11:45 am
Atla wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 9:30 am
Let 2019 here on Earth be the starting point.
I'm saying that if we could view the universe from the outside and follow "subjective time" long enough into what we consider the future of the starting point, a surprising thing could happen: we could end up in what we consider the past of the starting point.
Let us say I start from A. Is this the absolute starting point or did I come to A from somewhere? From where? Now if I make the journey and come to A so that the loop is filled, is this the absolute end? If not, where do I go from there? If I start the same journey, it takes place later in my subjective time than the first one even if it is the same journey if we look at the experiences and all external criteria. To say that coming to A is coming to my past is like saying that there are round squares. And there is no absolute point of view to the world.
A is any point on the loop, it doesn't matter which one. It's no actual beginning or end.

You miss the point. You can't take a "round trip journey" and "start again" because then once again you are applying the same old assumption of actual one-directional time, actual change. You are talking about several laps, cycles.

I mean one "cycle". Inside the loop, you too are bound to space and time. You can't actually make a trip and remember it because you are inside the loop. Nor does a human body survive a Big Bang or falling into a black hole or other such things.

Atla
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Atla » May 8th, 2019, 1:19 pm

Never mind. What are people trying to accomplish in metaphysics when they can't even step outside linear thining. The structures of existence are fundamentally circular.

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Felix
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Felix » May 8th, 2019, 2:25 pm

Atla: "There is no coming into existence, or first event in the chain, when time is a loop. That's the point."

As Tamminen explained, time is linear by it's very nature. Nonlinear time is an oxymoron, like saying "timeless time." Conceiving of it as an eternal loop would not change that, but give you something like Nietzsche's idea of eternal recurrence.

"when they can't even step outside linear thinking"

If I do that, what is it you think I would realize, that everything that can possibly happen has, so to speak, already happened? Is that the point of your argument?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

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Felix
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Felix » May 8th, 2019, 2:52 pm

Tamminen: "Even the eternal present has its past and future. But if there is an event before each event, I cannot be here now."

Getting back to this.... not sure I follow you, why can you not be here now if there is an event before each event?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

Tamminen
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Re: The Implications Of Generic Subjective Continuity

Post by Tamminen » May 8th, 2019, 3:23 pm

Atla wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 1:10 pm
I mean one "cycle". Inside the loop, you too are bound to space and time. You can't actually make a trip and remember it because you are inside the loop. Nor does a human body survive a Big Bang or falling into a black hole or other such things.
As I said, I speak about subjective time, you seem to speak about someting else, and I am not sure if I understand what it is you speak about. If it is, as Felix asked, that everything has already happened, so to speak, that is not a very bad idea, although a mystical one, but it does not change the logic of subjective time.
Felix wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 2:52 pm
...why can you not be here now if there is an event before each event?
I have tried to explain this in a couple of posts above, but I think a certain kind of intuition is needed to get a clear insight of this. As I said, first: there is no such thing as a real event in my infinite past, that would be absurd, and second: even if there were, there cannot be a road from that event to where I am now, a temporal series of real events from real infinite past to my real present. This is something like Zeno's paradox with no solution. Hard to explain with words though.

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